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A HOT topic posted in General on 1/2/10 @ 7:48 PM by jay.me

What is hell? What do you think? What does Gods word say.....

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112 replies on this topic
Christopher - 1/15/10 @ 5:51 PM

Grace and peace to you!

Hello Jay. Part of being teachable is to show patience, willingness to take time to digest what is before you, and respect enough for those around you sharing the Word with you as you do with them to reflect on their words through prayer (as I did with you). I am so very disappointed that you took such little time to evaluate the post that God had me do. Not only did you take such little time you became defensive with personal emotional illustrations that has caused you to loose some focus on Gods Word. "I attended a Baptist church for years. I sat through many sermons by our sincere pastor about God burning people in hellfire. I remember thinking even at a young age why? It didnt make me love God more, just dread him.""Why would God want to TORTURE anyone? God doesnt even WANT anyone to die." "Hellfire doctrine says God is unjust and wants to inflict torture....Forever!" "A blood-thirsty torturous god? Sounds very pagan to me..."

Jay, are you aware that your views reflect some of the same views that Jehovah Witnesses hold fast to? I am not saying this in an accusative manner. I am saying this to warn you of the direction that your emotions are taking you concerning Gods Word. This view is not held by the majority that you teach (throughout life span of Christianity). It is not just the Baptist that hold to eternal punishment!

Jay, your struggle is not with me, Jonathan, or anyone else of human flesh......its with God Himself. Please re-evaluate your emotions and how they impact your use of the Word.

A brother in Christ who does care enough to pray for you!

Matt - 1/15/10 @ 6:51 PM

The Idea of Hell alone brings up many contradictions in common beleifs. Though many people may associate hell with burning flames, it is simply seperation from God. These contradictions come to light because if God is omnipresent, how can you not be with him, and if God is Loving then why would he send people to a place of eternal torture?

Though I cant say from experience (duh), I personally beleive that hell is a choice that people make. God doesnt WANT to send people away from him, but some people do want to be seperated from God. Though hell may not be a one time choice (hm...bahamas? no, Italy? No, what about hell?), I do think that you can end up there by a lifetime of choices which set you on a path apart from God.

Whenever I talk about Hell, free will always comes into the coversation. God created us because he wanted a relationship; no matter where you are, God is with you but if you want to be apart from him, then the choice you make is that of Hell because it is the ONLY place without God. There is no "well, I dont want to be with God, but I dont want to go to hell either..." It is black and white, either you are with him or you are not, and the only place you are not with him is Hell.

Some people say "oh, I want to go to hell because it will be a party and all my friends will be there." Sure, all of your friends will be there but it will be not party. Even the most sinful person still has God all around them in every day life, and nobody knows how terrible TRUE seperation is except Jesus.

jay.me - 1/15/10 @ 7:26 PM

No problem Jonathan :)

Look at that Scripture again, actually read the chapter. http://nasb.scripturetext.com/2_peter/3.htm

That chapter is referring to the the last days, and WAS telling what would happen to the unrepentant.

Maybe this one is more clear...(John 3:16)

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not PERISH, but have everlasting life."

God is comparing the fate of believers...everlasting life
to the fate of unbelievers....they will perish.

Why is faith in Jesus going to save us from eternal death?

Because DEATH (not torture)was the punishment God gave to Adam.

Not a mention of burning hell, just death. God says so.


jay.me - 1/15/10 @ 7:51 PM

Christopher,

You say "Grace and peace to you!" Then proceed to attack me?

You dont answer to anything I posted? Just attack me personally.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

About your post you left this part of the Scripture out...

Rev.20:14 "Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death."

The lake of fire is symbolic. It says it right there. How could you throw death and the grave into a literal place?

And what does it tell you that the lake of fire is?
The second DEATH.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"defensive with personal emotional illustrations"? wow, all that huh? People here who have been reading my posts would know that I type CAPS for emphasis. Nothing else I said fit your description.

If you cant discuss your beliefs with Scripture, and resort to attacking people personally, maby you not talk to me.

Stephen - 1/15/10 @ 10:17 PM

Jay,
First off, respect. Respect for the Pastor because he is a man of GOD and the way I was raised, you dont ever call a pastor by his first name. With that being said, he wasnt attacking you, at least not on purpose or accusingly, he was pointing out a point in what you said.

jay.me - 1/16/10 @ 9:09 PM

Stephen,
I called him what he introduced himself as, and he had no problem calling me Jay.

Is that the direction you all are going? Personal attacks? And making up silly things to paint me as the bad guy? What truth that I have posted from Gods word do you attack me for?

Why dont you guys just stick to the discussion of Scripture...and leave out the personal stuff. Isnt resorting to that a sign of not being able to prove your point?

jay.me - 1/17/10 @ 8:39 PM

"Jay, your struggle is not with me, Jonathan, or anyone else of human flesh......its with God Himself. Please re-evaluate your emotions and how they impact your use of the Word."

I do not need to re-evaluate my beliefs (which is the only reason you attack me) they are in truth, based solely on Gods word...but I agree I have a struggle, not with God like you said....but like the Bible says "schemes of the Devil".


Ephesians 6: 10 "Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of His might. 11 Put on the full armor of God, so that you will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil. 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places. 13 Therefore, take up the full armor of God, so that you will be able to resist in the evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm."

Christopher - 1/17/10 @ 10:50 PM

Grace and peace to you,

Dear Jay,

God has given me a short period of down time before I have to minister this evening. So in the love of Christ I am going to spend that down time with you and our other brothers and sisters in Christ. So please, be of the mind set of a peacemaker.

Jay: "You say "Grace and peace to you!" Then proceed to attack me?"

Answer: I promise family member of the body of Christ.....so precious in the site of Jesus Christ our common Lord......I was not attacking you. I am terribly sorry that you viewed it as such. Grace and peace to you is just one way I show the love of Christ to you. Emotions can be an enemy to us at times, but even more so to those who teach. I simply made a few statements (formal account of events made to give points during discussions), which were made in love. This is perfectly normal in the arena of discussions. It takes maturity in Christ to understand that they are not attacks, and I believe you are more then mature enough to understand this. For even you yourself have made statements:

Example: Why do people hold on to such an ugly evil pagan doctrine. Yes, pagan.... Do you know the source of the belief in a burning place of torment after death? You can research it if you want. If you believe it you have something in common with:
* Hindus and Buddhists, they regard hell as a place of spiritual cleansing and final restoration.
* Islamic tradition considers it as a place of everlasting punishment.
And before that the idea of suffering after death is found among the pagan religious teachings of ancient peoples in Babylon and Egypt.

My statement: Your view reflects the teachings of Jehovah Witness. I stated clearly that I was not accusing you of being Jehovah Witness. I only pointed out that your teachings are similar, which you need to be aware of because this will send red flags up to anyone reading your teachings. It also can get you in trouble in many Christian churches if you teach your views, because the majority of Christian denominations do not teach your views (no eternal punishment, no immortal souls). In fact, you may even be asked by church leaders if you are Jehovah Witness because of these statements. And comparing them (or us I should say) to Hindus, and Islamic, would be considered a very unChristian like comments....perhaps even ugly, which would be another serious red flag. Many would see this as a personal attack, and slander. I personally (although I felt it was not proper) did not take offense since this is in the arena of discussion, which is what you asked for in the start of this discussion: "First you have to ask yourself if you believe Gods word. Thats the context Id like to discuss it in. Not debating the validity of Gods word, or if there is a God---(Alpha) Id like to discuss it in view of Christian beliefs.(in a Christian manner)" But can you see from the above statements that you made how you yourself did not follow your own guidelines?

Therefore, I did as you asked by using Gods Word to enter your discussion (I dont appreciate that you state that I have not used Scripture. Please look at my first post again and look at this one closely: "If you cant discuss your beliefs with Scripture, and resort to attacking people personally, maby you not talk to me."), which is all throughout my first post. The statements I made were as such: 1) I had asked you to take time by showing patience, which shows that you have a teachable heart (this is important to teachers, because they must exhibit in their life a constant state of growing in Christ or they should not be teaching, (1 Tim. 4:12-16; 2 Tim. 3:16 "training in righteousness," James 3:1-3). You took no time at all. In fact, you answered on the same day. This is not an attack but me making a truthful statement to you. 2) I asked you to seek Gods face over a period of days by reading His Word (and I hoped that prayer would naturally come) to see if He wanted to show you something that may improve your knowledge of Him (something that is basic even for those not teaching (1 Thess. 5:17). As stated above, you took no time to digest my post. Once again, not an attack but a statement of fact. 3) If you respected me as a brother you would have taken time before addressing me by reading carefully through the scriptures I wrote, and evaluating carefully my statements. This makes for wonderful discussions, and it shows love towards the neighbor, (Matt. 22:39) which is what I did for you. But as stated above....you took no time (sigh). This showed me that your emotions wanted you back into the arena to argue your points through defensive statements. And I am not talking about caps as a sign of emotions. Emotions are also seen in word choices and also in time frames. Using terms like "pagan," "attack me," "If you cant discuss your beliefs with Scripture, and resort to attacking people personally, maby you not talk to me." "You say the Bible teaches we have an immortal soul. If the Bible did teach that, you would have been able to post a Scripture saying so." I called him what he introduced himself as, and he had no problem calling me Jay. Is that the direction you all are going? Personal attacks? And making up silly things to paint me as the bad guy? What truth that I have posted from Gods word do you attack me for? Why dont you guys just stick to the discussion of Scripture...and leave out the personal stuff. Isnt resorting to that a sign of not being able to prove your point?" These are defensive emotional statements that do not benefit the arena of discussion that you yourself set. 4) Finally, I stated that your struggle is with God concerning eternal punishment and immortal souls. Once again, this is not an attack but a plea.

Jay: Concerning 2 Peter. 3:9, John 3:16.

Answer: They use of the term perish "GK - apoleicho" which means to destroy, or death. I believe your agenda to prove your point has lead you to take these two passages out of context. These two passages have nothing to do with eternal punishment. The authors are talking about the stage right before......death. When Christ returns He will put and end to our last enemy......death (1 Cor. 15:25-27), and then comes judgment (Rev. 20). But until then all humans will have to face bodily death. Unless, they accept Christ as Lord! Then they will be rescued. The body will die but the soul will go to be with God. These passages all speak very clearly.......with no doubt.......with no question......that after death of the body......we are with God (Luke 9:30 If Moses had truly died as you said and was suppose to be in the ground.....then how could he have been in the presence of Christ to talk about what was to come?; 23:43 If the thief hanging by Christ was truly going to experience death then how could he experience paradise before the end of days?; 2 Cor. 5:8 If we truly die and our soul dies as well.....then what part of Paul would have gone to be with God after he would be absent from His body? It makes no sense what so ever. It is Pauls soul that goes to be with God.; Phil. 1:23 And what part of Paul would depart to go with Jesus if it was not his body?; Rev. 20:4 And who are these people under Gods throne who had been beheaded...put to death......it was their souls: GK; psuche which means breath, i.e spirit "lower case s" and not the Holy Spirit i.e soul.) Lets not forget king David who lost His son after having Uriah killed! Nathan told him his son would die because of his great sin. And it came to pass that Davids son died. David was questioned by his servants who could not understand why David stopped showing grief. His answer, ""But now he has died; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me."How can David go to be with his son if he is in the grave? And in Luke 16:22, Do you think Christ would lie that Abraham was present in heaven for the poor man to be carried to his bosom? Lord forbid....its not in the nature of Christ to lie...not even in parables for this is always truth in them. Therefore, we must believe this story that Christ tells as truth. Truth that Abraham is not in the grave but alive in heaven! Praise be to Christ! Lets also not forget the 24 elders in Rev. 4:4-10, which represent the church. If they bodies are in the grave, and their is no souls of those who belong to Christ.....then who or what is singing praises to God before the end of days comes? And But the most convincing passage is by Christ Jesus Himself found in Matt. 22:32 when He says Himself that He is the God of the living.....not the dead! When it comes to souls being immortal.....we dont need exact words that state this to prove that our souls go to be with Him after death. We dont need the exact words because we have these truths stated here as fact!

Jay: What the Bible DOES teach is that the soul that sins it shall DIE. (( No immortal soul= NO fiery eternal punishment))
(Ezekiel:18:4)
“Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine. The soul who sins will DIE."

Answer: It is neither safe nor wise to build a theological stance upon one Scripture. And I will show you the reason why by showing you what I have already stated on this verse: In Ezek. 18:4, the soul "nephesh" - means, breathing creature, also body. Another words God is using the term "souls" as "human body." The body (or person) who sins will die, which is exactly what James wrote (James 1:15). Sins final out come is always death! After death....hell....after hell.....the lake of fire. You are wanting to look at this term as if it means spirit our soul. But that is simply not possible because it is not the Hebrew word that is being used here. This is why its not safe to build a theological stance on one verse. Multiple verses in the right context, with the right original language, and with common ideas.......give excellent evidence.

Jay: Read 2 Peter 3:5-6 "For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, 6 through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water."

Was the EARTH literally destroyed? NO. The wicked people on it were. Notice it says destroyed....not tortured.

Answer: This Scripture use is not profitable for this discussion. The earth was destroyed as far as what a world wide flood could do. It was so profound that it removed every life on the planet but 8 people, but the earth itself remained. But imagine if you will what it must be like to perish by such an event. I live in Alaska. Surrounded by cold water. So cold that your body will not survive after just a couple of minutes of being in the water. I have heard first hand accounts what a tortures way this is to die (numbness of body parts, shivering becomes violent, skin turns blue, body starts to swell up, pulse decreases putting a strain on the heart as well as the lungs, respiration also decreases, and the heart quickens to such a level that a heart attack is possible which can be excruciating). This is a terrible way to die. Even drowning in warm water is awful. The airways fill up with water and the body tries to cough it up but only inhales more water. The larynx and vocal cords seal the air tube. This prevents the lungs from filling up with water, but the water taken in goes to the stomach. The problem after this is that the lungs cannot take in air. The pain is profound! Eventually the body will go unconscious and the water will rush in to to kill them by wet drowning. But some victims will experience a dry drowning, which is when the lungs remained sealed off until cardiac arrest.....excruciating pain! Also, their is brain death.....the cardiac arrest leads to the brains cells being destroyed, which will bring brain death. Once again, not a picnic. Lets not forget that before drowning like described, most people will fight as long as they can by swimming......exhaustion is the enemy as well as the adrenalin rushes. If the person does not know how to swim they still will fight to stay afloat. Fear and adrenaline make things even more difficult. I would say that the wicked who perished by the flood died a very tortures death. Perhaps, a small portion went quickly.....we can only hope! But this Scripture has no bearings on eternal punishment.

Jay: "7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men."
It says the heavens and the earth are reserved for fire...will they literally burn? Or is it the destruction of ungodly men? The Bible uses fire to show its refining properties...not as a device for torturing.

Answer: The context of this passage and the Greek does not support your argument. Peter is simply stating here that when the day of judgement comes God will destroy the heavens and the earth by fire (Is. 66:15; Matt. 3:11-12; 2 Thess. 1:7-8. angels will be dealing out retribution or vengeance *punishment that is morally right, and fully deserved.* Further own down it states in verse 9 this punishment will be everlasting.). The fire can come by several ways: asteroids, core of the planet which burns at 12,400 degrees Fahrenheit may be released by God through the 10 mile crust that separates it from the surface, or perhaps solar flares. Praise be to God believers will not be here (1 Thess. 1:10, 5:9). However, those that perish by this fire are considered "perdition of ungodly men." Perdition in Gk - "apoleia" is translated as ruin physically and spiritually and eternal.....yes.....this is correct Gk....."eternal," meaning forever. God will make a judgement on them for choosing to worship the enemy, and the punishment decided upon them will be ruin (disastrous disintegration of someones life) for eternity. But what is really important here Jay is found in verses 8-9. God is going to give the lost plenty of time for them to change their minds so they can be rescued by Christ from this horrible future (praise be to Christ). This means we....all of us.....better get busy sharing the gospel so God can share the Words of Life (Jesus) through us to the lost so they too can have abundant life! Amen?!

Jay: Hellfire doctrine says God is unjust and wants to inflict torture....Forever!

Answer: Unfair statement that is governed by emotions. As stated above....God wants know one to perish and He is going to give them time to accept Him. Sadly, not everyone will take Him up on this because they willfully have chosen a different father.......a murderer.....a liar.....who teaches His children to walk in the same manner and his name is satan (John 8:44). God is a loving God as I have stated in my first post but He is also a God of wrath. Because He is a holy God He will not allow sin to go unpunished (Ps. 37:28). He will pour His anger out upon those who have chosen to serve a murderer (Rev. 14:9-13). God is truth....but He is just in all of His action.....all of them (Isa. 42:1). Even the ones that make us emotionally upset as eternal punishment (Deut. 32:3-5). But who are we to question God on such matters? Paul tells us in Rom. 9:14-21, that God will be God and their is nothing we can do about it. We can only trust in His just ways that they are perfect (Deut. 32:4; Isa. 30:18). This is what the story of Lazarus is about! God in His just ways sent the prophets to get people to stop pursuing the enemy. But they refused to listen. They chose to worship a murderer who taught them how to murder. And because they chose this path Gods angels will gather them because they were a stumbling block to the saved, and they will be thrown into the furnace (Matt. 13:40-42). I want to make this clear: There is nothing wrong with loving the lost so much that you care about their eternal state. God has commanded us to love them (Matt. 22:39). As humans our struggle is working through how deep our love is for them (especially loved ones) and balancing out Gods Word in our minds so we come to a place of acceptance......acceptance that God is God and we are not. He has the right to do with His creation as He wants. For He is the master potter. Our sinful nature tells us that we should have some control over this. So we look for Scriptures that will support a theological stance that makes our faith more palatable to us, but in the end all we have managed to do is to manipulate, twist, and abuse Gods Word. Its called.....bringing our agenda to the Bible. It should be.....The Bible tells us what Gods agenda is for us and everyone else! This is why its so very important to not let our emotions govern what we learn from Gods Word!

Jay: Read about king Ahaz (2Chronicals)
"Ahaz was twenty years old when he began to reign, and he reigned sixteen years in Jerusalem: but he did not that which was right in the sight of the LORD, like David his father: 2 For he walked in the ways of the kings of Israel, and made also molten images for Baalim. 3 Moreover he burnt incense in the valley of the son of Hinnom, and burnt his children in the fire, after the abominations of the heathen whom the LORD had cast out before the children of Israel."

He was a bad king, he did NOT do right in the sight of God.
Look at one of the things he did, God called an ABOMINATION...he burnt his children in the fire!

Will God do WORSE than what he HIMSELF called an abomination?

Think about that.

Answer: I thought about it Jay. Your over looking a simple truth. Ahaz did not give the children a chance for life. He murdered them (deep sadden sigh). He did what his father (satan) taught him to do as stated above. And as stated above.....God gives the lost a chance to repent. He gives them their life span. He even lets murderers have a chance at salvation! This is the beauty of our God! He gives them preachers. He gives them the Bible. He gives them you, me, and everyone else who believes a chance to share the gospel. He has made Himself known to them (Rom. 1), but they turned their backs on Him and fashioned idols to worship instead.....then went off creating new ways to sin! Gods holiness demands justice as stated above. Your perspective of God should not be on one of a terrible God but a God of justice who set things straight because He is holy God....perfect!

Jay: Jeremiah 7: 31"And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them NOT, neither came it into my heart."

So you may want to believe that Gehenna is a symbol of burning people...but..God said THAT never came into HIS heart.

In Gods word fire is used as a symbol for eternal destruction. A means of refining the earth, by destroying ungodly men.

God is going to cleanse the earth, and those who are ungodly will "PERISH" they will be "DESTROYED" they will "DIE" just like the Bible teaches us.

Listen to God, seek wisdom...

Proverbs 2 "4 If you seek her as silver
And search for her as for hidden treasures;
5 Then you will discern the fear of the LORD
And discover the knowledge of God."

Have a true fear of God: respect, reverence, a fear of displeasing him out of love...not out of morbid dread fear of torture!

Answer: I lovingly....humbly say to you, you have taken things out of context. It never entered Gods heart that they should do what they did! This cannot be applied to eternal punishment. God was talking about those that had burned the children. This cannot be applied to the final days nor eternal punishment! And Jesus clarifies this further....."the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these" as I have stated in my post before. God is crazy in love with the kids and He will eternally punish those that have become a stumbling block to them (read above for Scripture). Respect, reverence, a fear of displeasing him out of love are all part of the Greek when it comes to the term "fear." But the Bible says to fear the One who after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell, yes, I tell you, fear Him (Luke 12:5). Jesus made it perfectly clear......that it is perfectly healthy to fear God because He can send us to a place of torment! Once again, the issue is the struggle with Gods Word and not interpretation, because that came from Christ Himself......not from pastor Christopher.

Jay: About your post you left this part of the Scripture out...

Rev.20:14 "Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death."

The lake of fire is symbolic. It says it right there. How could you throw death and the grave into a literal place?

And what does it tell you that the lake of fire is?
The second DEATH.

Answer: Well Jay, I did not leave it out. I went with what God gave me to give to you. But since this is important to you......lets take a quick look at. This is simply figurative language. What is implied is that death will no longer be our enemy because it will be tossed into the Lake of fire. Who is the father of death? Is it not Satan as the Scripture I used above says? The curse of death is done away with for the enemy will be gone! Praise be to Christ Jesus our Lord! Lake of fire is not symbolic.....it is a place of eternal punishment. Please look to my first post, because there is no need for me to recover the material. And yes, of course.....the Bible calls it the second death, which will be eternal punishment in the lake of fire. Too many Scripture and too much Greek support this view. You simply cannot ignore them. That is not safe nor wise!

Jay: I do not need to re-evaluate my beliefs (which is the only reason you attack me) they are in truth, based solely on Gods word...but I agree I have a struggle, not with God like you said....but like the Bible says "schemes of the Devil".

Answer: "I do not to re-evaluate my beliefs (which is the only reason you attack me)." I asked you to re-evaluate your emotions and how they impact your use of the Word. I did not ask you to re-evaluate your beliefs. As stated in the beginning: I promise I was not attacking you. Discussions or debates if you will.....seem personal or attacking because they involve personal ideas that we have made our own. Therefore, you felt attacked. Also, as teachers of Gods Word we should be in a constant state of re-evaluating our Scriptural beliefs. This is a must as I have stated before with Scriptural support.

Closing: What is the outcome of these two thoughts? In short:

1) No eternal punishment: Death to atheist becomes Club Med. Its a picnic. Your telling them exactly what they believe already that when they die.....there is nothing....just death. There is nothing to fear and they get to hold on to the belief there is no God to fear. This view has absolutely no hope of being a tool for witnessing to the lost. This removes parts of the character of God that are essential such as justice, and wrath. God is scaled down to just a God of love. Which He is but he has many more attributes that must be used! Scripture becomes neglected and misused. Then what happens is that one is opened up to Gods discipline.

2) Eternal punishment: Fear of God is to be valued beyond measure. To fear the God who can place someone in hell is to know that one needs to be saved from it! And there is only One who can save us from the lake of fire.....Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior! The atheist learn that they will not get away with their sins. They will learn that they cannot get away with causing Gods children to fall and expect no repercussions. They will learn that God will demand justice, and they will have to pay for it after death. This is an excellent witnessing tool, because it tells people that they need a Savior!!! It tells them that death is not Club Med....a picnic. And Ive seen it countless times.......it puts the fear of God into the lost.....and they run to the Saviors arms and ask Jesus to come live in their heart and be Lord of their life! And then they learn the most important thing......that Gods grace is so deep and profound that they cannot help but love Him with all their hearts, mind, and soul.

I would like to close by telling you that not one word was stated in my post that had anger, contempt, bitterness, or disrespect. All was stated in love with the idea of letting iron sharpen iron. I am going to humbly ask you these three things: One, Would you please pray as you read this; two, Would you please take at least two days to digest it; Two, Would you please read each Scripture in context?

In Christ,
A brother

PS. Praying for you!







jay.me - 1/19/10 @ 1:00 PM

Hello Christopher, you don’t mind if I call you that do you, since I have absolutely no idea who you are, or if that is even your name.;) So no disrespect.

I read your post and took my time before posting you back. I hope you can find time to read this it may be long.

C said “because the majority of Christian denominations do not teach your views “

J~~. Jehovahs Witnesses teach the truth about hell…that’s great!
There are many other faiths who deny the hell doctrine. Since the Bible is our only source of truth, pulling the denominations card doesnt help prove your stance on the issue of hell does it? Just like attacking the person who is giving the message would not.


J~~A surprising thing (or not) : most people don’t adhere to all of their denominations tenents of faith anyway. Just because someone calls himself a Catholic or Baptist doesn’t mean he actually is…or that he believes everything that Baptists teach…like buring hell ect. So a large percent of people don’t agree about hell. And yet they come from the so-called majority of Christian denominations.

J~~All the more reason for each of us to personally know God and obey him. By learning what the Bible teaches.. Then you wont be held captive by every false doctrine or vain teaching of man

C: Speaking about ‘Christians’ you said:
“And comparing them (or us I should say) to Hindus, and Islamic, would be considered a very unChristian like comments....perhaps even ugly, which would be another serious (red flag)..”

J~~ This is what I said:

“If you believe it (hell) you have something in common with:
* Hindus and Buddhists, they regard hell as a place of spiritual cleansing and final restoration.
* Islamic tradition considers it as a place of everlasting punishment.
And before that the idea of suffering after death is found among the pagan religious teachings of ancient peoples in Babylon and Egypt.”

J~~That is true, so how can you take offense at it?

HINDU HELL:

“Summary of hell as described in the Srimad Bhagavatam:
Because Hinduism is based on the idea of perpetual reincarnation, Hindu hell is merely a stopping point where souls burn off evil before proceeding to the next life. The number of hells varies greatly, with some accounts listing as many as 136 separate underworld realms, each corresponding to a different sin. In these chambers of punishment, the spirit rids itself of bad KARMA (the sum of its evil acts). Tortures in the lower hells, the worst places of agony, include being burned alive, boiling in oil, and being eaten by ravenous birds.”
The Encyclopedia of Hell." Miriam Van Scott. St. Martins Press. ©1998

ISLAMIC HELL:

“38) Hell is a place that Allah (subhana wa taala) has made for the non-believers. Hell has seven doors and seven levels. The highest one is called Jahannam. The lowest one is called Haawiya. All the levels have different names: Jahunnam, Saqar, Nutaa, Hutamah, Saeer, Jaheem and Haawiya. …..The Hell fire will be seventy times hotter than the worlds fire. On the order of Allah, when the people of Hell will be thrown into Hell, they will wear clothes. The clothes will be marked with fire. The snakes and the scorpions will bite the people. When they will be punished like this, they will die again and again, and they will become alive again and again. This will happen to them over and over again.

In Hell, the least punishment will be that the people will be given fire shoes to wear, with this the persons brain will boil, like water boils in the kettle. …... A type of food will be given to them called Daree. This will also get stuck in their throats. To bring it down they will ask for water but they will get hot pus, which will be so dirty that if a bucket full of this falls on the world the whole world will become sour. It is going to be so hot that when the people of Hell put their faces down to drink it their faces will burn. ..…The people of Hell will want to die, but they cant die because the Angel will have slaughtered death on the Day of Judgement. The people who worshipped statues, the stars, the moon etc, in their life on earth, will be with them. Allah wants to show them that they worshipped these things on earth, but now they are with them, but they cant help. The Devil (Shaytaan) will also be in Hell. The people will say to him, "You misled us, we are here because of YOU!" Devil will say, "Allah sent Prophets, and He sent books. You know I was wrong, so why did you follow me?"

The non-believers will ask the Angels who are in charge of Hell to ask Allah to forgive them. When the Angels request Allah, to forgive the non-believers, Allah will say to the Angel, "Tell the non-believers, I sent Messengers to you on earth. Why didnt you believe in what they said? So now you will remain in Hell forever." Then the non-believers will remain in Hell forever.

O Allah! Save us from the fire of Hell, and admit us into the gardens of Paradise.”

http://www.islamicinformationcentre.co.uk/muslims.htm#6


ANCIENT PAGANS HELL

Most ancient societies and religions had an idea of an afterlife judgment, especially understood as a "weighing of souls," where the gods would reward the faithful worshipers, or honor the great and mighty of society. In later times this notion of afterlife was refined more and more into a concept of the public recognition of the worth of a persons life, its moral valency. The three biblical religions— Judaism, Christianity, and Islam—all apply the notion of the afterlife judgment (and the ideas of heaven and hell which derive from this concept) as essentially a divine adjudication that assesses and pronounces on the worth of a human life. Such beliefs were to become among the most potent mechanisms of social control ever devised.

The classical Greek conception viewed Hades, the land of the dead, as a place of insubstantial shadows. The story of the "House of the Dead" in Homers Odyssey gives a harrowing version of how even heroes are rendered into pathetic wraiths, desperately thirsting after life, waiting for the grave offerings (libations of wine or blood or the smoke of sacrifices) that their relatives would offer at their tombs. Such an afterlife was as insubstantial as smoke, a poetic evocation of the grief of loss more than anything else. There was no life or love or hope beyond the grave.
By contrast the gods were immortals who feasted in an Elysian paradise, a marked contrast to the wretched fallibility of mortals whose deaths would reduce them one day, inevitably, to dust and oblivion. This resigned existentialism permeates much of classical Greek and Roman writing. It was not particularly related to the more philosophical notions, as witnessed in Plato, for example, of the soul as an immortal and godlike entity that would one day be freed when released from its bodily entrapment.
However, both notions were destined to be riveted together, in one form or another, when the Christians merged the Hellenistic concepts of their cultural matrix with biblical ideas of judgment, as they elaborated the New Testament doctrine of hell.

The classical descriptions of Hades were borrowed and reused by Christians as one of the first popular images for hell. The earliest iconic images of the Resurrection, in Byzantine art, depict Christ descending into Hades, breaking down the doors and liberating the souls of all those who had been consigned to imprisonment in the House of Death before his incarnation. Having broken into the realm of darkness and powerlessness, the Risen Christ is shown stretching out a hand to Adam and Eve, to lift them from their tombs, while the other righteous men and women of the days before his coming all wait in line to be taken with Christ to the glory of heaven.
In the Christian era, with common allegiance being given to the idea of the immortality of the soul, Hades was now no longer a place of fading away to nonexistence, but rather a place of permanent imprisonment and sorrow. So it was that Hades made its transition toward becoming hell.

http://www.deathreference.com/Gi-Ho/Hell.html

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FIRE AS A SYMBOL IN SCRIPTURE:

Jay said: "7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men."

J~~It says the heavens and the earth are reserved for fire...will they literally burn? Or is it the destruction of ungodly men? The Bible uses fire to show its refining properties...not as a device for torturing.

C :”Answer:… Peter is simply stating here that when the day of judgement comes God will destroy the heavens and the earth by fire (Is. 66:15; Matt. 3:11-12; 2 Thess. 1:7-8. angels will be dealing out retribution or vengeance *punishment that is morally right, and fully deserved.*

C : “However, those that perish by this fire are considered "perdition of ungodly men." Perdition in Gk - "apoleia" is translated as ruin physically and spiritually and eternal.....yes.....this is correct Gk....."eternal," meaning forever. God will make a judgement on them for choosing to worship the enemy, and the punishment decided upon them will be ruin (disastrous disintegration of someones life) for eternity.”

J~~Ok, so where do we disagree? The fire is Figurative. It means destruction, death. Not eternal torture.


Lets look at the other Scriptures you mention:

(Isaiah 66:15 ) “For behold, the LORD will come in fire And His chariots like the whirlwind, To render His anger with fury, And His rebuke with flames of fire.”—Isaiah 66:15, 16.

J~~The initial fulfillment of this was when the Babylonians, as Gods executioners, came against Jerusalem In 607 B.C.E., The fire is symbolic for their destruction…not eternal torture. Jerusalem was destroyed and many Jews died. It is also for our time as well, the same will happen at Armageddon.

(Matt 3:11-12) “As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. 12 His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

J~~More symbolism. Will Jesus baptizes those who repent in literal fire? Or is this symbolic?
Same for the wheat, if not, how then do you say the fire is literal? It means destruction that wont end. Death eternal for the chaff.

(2 Thessalonians 1:7-9) "and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, strength”

J~~So this is excellent because it shows us the time frame to be the last days. (revelation of Jesus) It tells us exactly what will become of those who do not know God and do not obey the good news about Jesus. That is serious folks. That shows us we have a responsibility to know God, and to obey the good news. How do we do that? Read and study his word. Get to know the truth about God and obey! God wants us to worship Him with “spirit and truth”.
And, it clearly shows what is Gods punishment for those who don’t know and obey Him?…. “everlasting destruction from before the Lord”
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C: “....The Bible tells us what Gods agenda is for us and everyone else! This is why its so very important to not let our emotions govern what we learn from Gods Word!””

J~~~Exacltly Christopher, The Hell doctrine is based on emotion,… fear. It was invented to scare people into submission.

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Concerning Ahaz:

C said "Answer: I thought about it Jay. Your over looking a simple truth. Ahaz did not give the children a chance for life."

J~~ And God does. your right! So you cannot compare what evil Ahaz did (Which God called an abomination) To the punishment God gave to unbelievers....death. That is a just punishment, not torture.

J~~ said :Jeremiah 7: 31"And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them NOT, neither came it into my heart."

J~~ said: "So you may want to believe that Gehenna is a symbol of burning people...but..God said THAT never came into HIS heart."

C said: "It never entered Gods heart that they should do what they did! This cannot be applied to eternal punishment."

J~~ I agree! But the Scriptures about Gehenna are exactly what people use to "show" the idea of a burning hell.
What is shows the contemptible state of those worthy of going to Gehenna, the Lake of fire, the second death. And fire is used as a symbol of refining. Remember the "earth" is reserved for fire! God is going to cleanse it of the wicked.
Not literally burn up the earth.

C said; "God was talking about those that had burned the children. This cannot be applied to the final days nor eternal punishment!"

J~~Exactly. So why do people try make God out to be like Ahaz? God said what happened there was an abomination.

(one of those major Christian denominations) Says children go to hell and burn if they die before being baptized. How awful!

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C: “lets take a quick look at. This is simply figurative language. What is implied is that death will no longer be our enemy because it will be tossed into the Lake of fire.”

J~~Yes, it is figurative C. And like you said hell and death will no longer be our enemy…..why, because they are being tortured eternally?

~~No but like the Bible tells us they will be GONE. Just like ALL of those who are also ‘figuratively’ tossed into the lake of fire. (By the way now it is a lake, not a furnace?)

C asked: “Who is the father of death? Is it not Satan as the Scripture I used above says?”

J~~He was a murderer from the beginning, because he got the first couple to sin and that brought about everyones death.(not torture)

J~~The Bible says Satan is the “Father of lies” (John 8:44.)
"You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies."

J~~Like when he said you will surely not die’.

C said: “The curse of death is done away with for the enemy will be gone!”

J~~The last “enemy” death will be gone because Jesus has paid for our sin. Sin is the cause of death. When all things are returned to God, and we are reconciled to Him through Jesus, then it will be said death is no more.


C: “And yes, of course.....the Bible calls it the second death, which will be eternal punishment in the lake of fire."

J~~ the lake of fire IS the second death. God said the punishment for Adam was what? Death. So…Eternal punishment is eternal “Death”.

C: “I asked you to re-evaluate your emotions and how they impact your use of the Word. I did not ask you to re-evaluate your beliefs. “

J~~Ok, then I’m sorry and I apologize. It is frustrating sometimes. You try to show people things that are so clear.

In closing C said:

“1)No eternal punishment: Death to atheist becomes Club Med...

2) Eternal punishment: Fear of God is to be valued beyond measure… “


J~~Thats part of why the Hell doctrine was adopted, Because religious leaders thought the idea of death wasn’t scary or bad enough. People needed to be kept under control and paying indulgences. They could control them better if they were afraid of hell. Kind of like the government uses fear today. Fear is an effective controlling devise. ~ For a while.

The thought of being separated from God eternally isn’t enough? Isn’t death bad enough for people? Not enjoying a beautiful day of life again? Do you ever want to die? Can you think of a time that you would?

Hell is a lie, so people are free to serve God with all of their hearts ,because they love Him, and because of the wonderful promises He made to us! (Romans 12:12) “12 Rejoice in the hope. Endure under tribulation. Persevere in prayer.."

The 9 or so Scriptures you mention in your post involving the soul I will discuss but later, and on the immortal soul topic. Ok?

Christopher - 1/23/10 @ 2:14 AM

Grace and peace to you Jay....and to all!

Yes, feel free to call me by my given name or brother.....since we are family. I dont believe in deception, or lying.....certainly not going to start now.

J~~. Jehovahs Witnesses teach the truth about hell…that’s great!
There are many other faiths who deny the hell doctrine. Since the Bible is our only source of truth, pulling the denominations card doesnt help prove your stance on the issue of hell does it? Just like attacking the person who is giving the message would not.

C: You would need to change the term "many," because it is in fact....the minority when it comes to the Christian faith. I was not using the so called "denomination card" to get....a "one up on you." The Scripture is my soul defense.....and offense. I simply stated a fact to make you and others aware that your ideas are in harmony with a well known cult that does not believe in the same Bible that you and I adhere to. But since you bring this to the table now......it should send red flags up. If not.....it would be wise as well as prudent to ask yourself why your theological stance is in the minority and why its in agreement with a cult. For if you truly do love Gods Word....I would think this would be extremely important to you.....very much so. Dont let pride get in the way of growth in Christ.

J~~A surprising thing (or not) : most people don’t adhere to all of their denominations tenents of faith anyway. Just because someone calls himself a Catholic or Baptist doesn’t mean he actually is…or that he believes everything that Baptists teach…like buring hell ect. So a large percent of people don’t agree about hell. And yet they come from the so-called majority of Christian denominations.

C: True, most do not adhere to all their denomination beliefs. Sad, but true. As a pastor I am always encouraging the family of God to compare Gods Word to the beliefs held by the (their) church. Is Gods Word the authority? If not.......best to move on. Is the ears getting tickled? Best to move on. However, if Gods Word is taught......even if it causes discomfort.....then God has blessed you with a wonderful church.
I am going to be honest with you Jay. This is not meant to be a "one up on you" moment, but I fear you will take it as such. I have met many Christians over many years of ministry. You are the first Christian that I have met that holds to "no eternal punishment" and "no immortal soul." I have heard many different thoughts about hell by Christians, but never your ideas. Your probably wondering if I get out much. Perhaps not enough for you. Now does my name carry wait in the Christian community to where my statement makes a huge impact on you as well as others? Certainly not! However, I have been chosen, and called out by Jesus Christ to serve Him as one of the many pastors that serve His flock. He has in-trusted in me His precious Word. He has ordained me into this humble place of service. I did not ask for this. I did not seek it out. It still humbles me even today. Should there be a degree of respect shown by you in what I have shared.....the same respect I have shown to you....the same love? I would humbly ask you to look at what Gods Word has to say about the leaders of the church in association with those they watch over in spiritual matters. I suggest 1 Timothy and Hebrews. If you truly love Gods Word......then it is my prayer that you will give the thoughts I have prayed over......more respect and more weight then what you continue to show. I ask this humbly....with respect, and in honor. This is not an attack but an encouragement. If you desire to call this a "card" moment......then there is nothing I can do about it, but say......just being truthful.

J~~All the more reason for each of us to personally know God and obey him. By learning what the Bible teaches.. Then you wont be held captive by every false doctrine or vain teaching of man

C: Such a pleasant moment here......finally.....something we agree upon! And I do say that with respect!

~~ This is what I said:

“If you believe it (hell) you have something in common with:
* Hindus and Buddhists, they regard hell as a place of spiritual cleansing and final restoration.
* Islamic tradition considers it as a place of everlasting punishment.
And before that the idea of suffering after death is found among the pagan religious teachings of ancient peoples in Babylon and Egypt.”

J~~That is true, so how can you take offense at it?

C:This is what I said actually: Many would see this as a personal attack, and slander. I personally (although I felt it was not proper) did not take offense since this is in the arena of discussion, which is what you asked for in the start of this discussion: "First you have to ask yourself if you believe Gods word. Thats the context Id like to discuss it in. Not debating the validity of Gods word, or if there is a God---(Alpha) Id like to discuss it in view of Christian beliefs.(in a Christian manner)" But can you see from the above statements that you made how you yourself did not follow your own guidelines? This is why I asked you to give more respect and more of your time when it comes to my sharing ideas with you. Please note that I stated that I did not take offense but I did think it not proper. Why? Because of your basis for this entire question, which is stated just above these words. You set the guidelines on terms of Christian beliefs. You broke your own guidelines by bringing in other (non Christian) faiths. I consider this a "straw man," or a "card" as you labeled it. I tell you this in respect. I shared your thoughts with other believers.....and your words hurt them. Those words became a stumbling block. And we both know what God has to say about stumbling blocks. People who love Jesus Christ with all their hearts, minds, and souls do not want to be compared (shown similarity or dissimilarity to something else) to well known non believers who worship the enemy. They were insulted. Especially since there is Biblical truth to support their beliefs.....more Biblical truths then what you have presented (which lacks language support). And this opened the door for me to inform you that you had similar beliefs to the JWs.

C: Interesting how you give the forum a brief run down of other beliefs that worship the enemy and not our common Lord Jesus Christ just so a "card" could be played as you call it . Interesting.....because you just stated this: J~~All the more reason for each of us to personally know God and obey him. By learning what the Bible teaches.. Then you wont be held captive by every false doctrine or vain teaching of man.
If the Bible is the authority then this is one "card" that should have been avoided. For the Scripture tell us that God has made Himself known to all but the lost take and distort Him into idols that they love to worship (Rom. 1). The "card" played here.....was really a show to us how the lost take Gods truth.....manipulate it.....distort it.....and twist it to suite their own needs. Even satan himself used Gods own Word against Christ, but he distorted it to suite his own needs (Matt. 4:1-11). This is the enemies tactic and it was brought here to a Christian forum as a way to defend your personal ideas (sigh). In the future please re-consider such a tactic when you yourself set guidelines that its to be a Christian based discussion.

Jay: "7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men."
It says the heavens and the earth are reserved for fire...will they literally burn? Or is it the destruction of ungodly men? The Bible uses fire to show its refining properties...not as a device for torturing.

C (previous post):”Answer:… Peter is simply stating here that when the day of judgement comes God will destroy the heavens and the earth by fire (Is. 66:15; Matt. 3:11-12; 2 Thess. 1:7-8. angels will be dealing out retribution or vengeance *punishment that is morally right, and fully deserved.*

C (previous post): “However, those that perish by this fire are considered "perdition of ungodly men." Perdition in Gk - "apoleia" is translated as ruin physically and spiritually and eternal.....yes.....this is correct Gk....."eternal," meaning forever. God will make a judgement on them for choosing to worship the enemy, and the punishment decided upon them will be ruin (disastrous disintegration of someones life) for eternity.”

J~~Ok, so where do we disagree? The fire is Figurative. It means destruction, death. Not eternal torture

C: This is what I actually said: Answer: The context of this passage and the Greek does not support your argument. Peter is simply stating here that when the day of judgement comes God will destroy the heavens and the earth by fire (Is. 66:15; Matt. 3:11-12; 2 Thess. 1:7-8. angels will be dealing out retribution or vengeance *punishment that is morally right, and fully deserved.* Further own down it states in verse 9 this punishment will be everlasting.). The fire can come by several ways: asteroids, core of the planet which burns at 12,400 degrees Fahrenheit may be released by God through the 10 mile crust that separates it from the surface, or perhaps solar flares. Praise be to God believers will not be here (1 Thess. 1:10, 5:9). However, those that perish by this fire are considered "perdition of ungodly men." Perdition in Gk - "apoleia" is translated as ruin physically and spiritually and eternal.....yes.....this is correct Gk....."eternal," meaning forever. God will make a judgement on them for choosing to worship the enemy, and the punishment decided upon them will be ruin (disastrous disintegration of someones life) for eternity. But what is really important here Jay is found in verses 8-9. God is going to give the lost plenty of time for them to change their minds so they can be rescued by Christ from this horrible future (praise be to Christ). This means we....all of us.....better get busy sharing the gospel so God can share the Words of Life (Jesus) through us to the lost so they too can have abundant life! Amen?!

C: In my post I showed where you took Scripture out of context....and now you took me out of context. You chopped up my words to suit your will. I take offense, but I forgive you! Why? You are my neighbor.....you are family. Please, show more respect to what God has given me to give to you. We disagree in several ways, and if you respected me enough you would read in context to see it. Heaven and earth will be burned by fire in the end of days (Is. 66:15; Matt. 3:11-12; 2 Thess. 1:7-8). Also found in Revelation. I dont believe this is figurative. I do believe this will be Gods judgment and His wrath poured out as I stated above...the Greek supports this and there is plenty of Scripture to support it (let Scripture interpret Scripture....the serious theologians agree on this major belief). Yes, there are passages that are used in the Bible to describe fire as destructive and death. But in the passages I have shown you concerning eternal fire.....the way your describing it is not the proper interpretation (however, you are entitled to your opinion). 2 Thess. 1:9, it is clearly stated in the Greek and in the Scripture that the punishment will be everlasting. If you respect a brother in Christ, you will go back to read what God had me place in this forum on this topic. Would be silly to repeat myself. In short: perdition of ungodly men, and eternal punishment.....are related to the lake of fire (ruin physically is a state of disintegrating...a state of disorder....it is not death. It is torture....to be destroyed over a eternal base of time. This is the Greek....this is truth. Sadly....very sadly.....they will suffer for eternity for choosing to worship the enemy. Gods judgment and wrath will happen in this manner. And we will trust that His will is perfect. They will be going to a place where the worm does not die, which is stated by Christ Himself. And He would never lie to us that this place will torment those who go there. This is not figurative. This is Christ doing what Christ does....sharing Words of truth. So please, re-read my post as it is easy to see you are not fully grasping what is placed before you.

(Matt 3:11-12) “As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. 12 His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

J~~More symbolism. Will Jesus baptizes those who repent in literal fire? Or is this symbolic?
Same for the wheat, if not, how then do you say the fire is literal? It means destruction that wont end. Death eternal for the chaff.

C: Another place we disagree. It is not symbolic. This speaks about the judgment that will take place in the end of days concerning those that have not repented. The first part is about baptizing for repentance. The second part is about the judgment to come. But as stated, your entitled to your opinion.

(2 Thessalonians 1:7-9) "and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, strength”

J~~So this is excellent because it shows us the time frame to be the last days. (revelation of Jesus) It tells us exactly what will become of those who do not know God and do not obey the good news about Jesus. That is serious folks. That shows us we have a responsibility to know God, and to obey the good news. How do we do that? Read and study his word. Get to know the truth about God and obey! God wants us to worship Him with “spirit and truth”.
And, it clearly shows what is Gods punishment for those who don’t know and obey Him?…. “everlasting destruction from before the Lord”

C: Once again the terms we have discussed are present....."eternal destruction." Destruction is the action or process of causing so much damage that something cannot be repaired. Hence a place where the worm does not die......slow destruction of the person over eternal base of time (forever)......where the grief of it will cause them to gnash their teeth (cant gnash your teeth if your dead). Once again, not symbolic. Christ always......always speaks truth! Parables....you always find a truth to be pulled out of it. In illustrations.....you will always find a truth in them. In short sayings.....there is truth! Therefore, gnashing of teeth gives us this harsh truth: after people are tossed into the lake of fire a person will experience such a heighten degree of pain.....which will last for forever. You have yet to deal seriously with this. You brush these concepts off like they are nothing. Why? Because they dont fit into your argument. Therefore, you chunk them out of the box your putting God in. Your theology on this issue is governed by your emotions to such a degree that you have fashioned in your mind a god that is palatable to you. I plead with you to let God be God! I plead with you to read the Scripture in context. I plead with you to use the Hebrew and Greek correctly. Take the rose colored glasses off......and let the Scripture speak to you instead of you speaking to it. You love the Scripture.....its obvious. So let God be God! Even if it means you have to sacrifice that perfect....palatable image you have of Him. I promise when you let go and let Him be God......you will be find that you dont have to be in control of things to such a degree. You will find that you can actually rest, because He......is finally in total control. Then a peace beyond understanding will flow over you!

C: “....The Bible tells us what Gods agenda is for us and everyone else! This is why its so very important to not let our emotions govern what we learn from Gods Word!””

J~~~Exacltly Christopher, The Hell doctrine is based on emotion,… fear. It was invented to scare people into submission.

C: Yes Jay......it was invented by the Author of life.....Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior. I know this is not how you meant it, but Im simply pointing out the Biblical truth. As stated.....your problem is not with me or anyone else, but with God.

C said "Answer: I thought about it Jay. Your over looking a simple truth. Ahaz did not give the children a chance for life."

J~~ And God does. your right! So you cannot compare what evil Ahaz did (Which God called an abomination) To the punishment God gave to unbelievers....death. That is a just punishment, not torture.

C: This is what I said in context to show that I was taken out of context again, and words were put into my mouth for me: Answer: I thought about it Jay. Your over looking a simple truth. Ahaz did not give the children a chance for life. He murdered them (deep sadden sigh). He did what his father (satan) taught him to do as stated above. And as stated above.....God gives the lost a chance to repent. He gives them their life span. He even lets murderers have a chance at salvation! This is the beauty of our God! He gives them preachers. He gives them the Bible. He gives them you, me, and everyone else who believes a chance to share the gospel. He has made Himself known to them (Rom. 1), but they turned their backs on Him and fashioned idols to worship instead.....then went off creating new ways to sin! Gods holiness demands justice as stated above. Your perspective of God should not be on one of a terrible God but a God of justice who set things straight because He is a holy God....perfect!

C: Please point out to me where I compared the evil of Ahaz to the punishment God gave to unbelievers in this pasted section? This was your defense, not mine. I was simply pointing out a few things concerning it. I would never use this passage to discuss eternal punishment, because it would be taking it out of context.

J~~ said :Jeremiah 7: 31"And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them NOT, neither came it into my heart."

J~~ said: "So you may want to believe that Gehenna is a symbol of burning people...but..God said THAT never came into HIS heart."

C said: "It never entered Gods heart that they should do what they did! This cannot be applied to eternal punishment."

J~~ I agree! But the Scriptures about Gehenna are exactly what people use to "show" the idea of a burning hell.
What is shows the contemptible state of those worthy of going to Gehenna, the Lake of fire, the second death. And fire is used as a symbol of refining. Remember the "earth" is reserved for fire! God is going to cleanse it of the wicked.
Not literally burn up the earth.

C: Christ Himself uses the imagery as a way for people to grasp what the lake of fire will be like. Now when Christ uses it.....it is in regards to eternal punishment. However, it cannot be applied here in Jer. 7:31. And as pointed out above.....I believe in the end of days God will burn the earth. Please read my earlier post in context. But again, your entitled to your opinion.

C said; "God was talking about those that had burned the children. This cannot be applied to the final days nor eternal punishment!"

J~~Exactly. So why do people try make God out to be like Ahaz? God said what happened there was an abomination.

(one of those major Christian denominations) Says children go to hell and burn if they die before being baptized. How awful!

C: Jay, humbly I say to you.....they are not making God into Ahaz. They are just reading the Bible as God stated. Again, your emotions on this topic show to make such a statement. Your entitled to your opinion. And concerning the denominations that believe children will be going to hell.......wont they be shocked when they see so many kidos in heaven........for such as these the kingdom of heaven belongs to!!! But shame on them....agreed.

C: “lets take a quick look at. This is simply figurative language. What is implied is that death will no longer be our enemy because it will be tossed into the Lake of fire.”

J~~Yes, it is figurative C. And like you said hell and death will no longer be our enemy…..why, because they are being tortured eternally?

~~No but like the Bible tells us they will be GONE. Just like ALL of those who are also ‘figuratively’ tossed into the lake of fire. (By the way now it is a lake, not a furnace?)

C: Yes, those that are going to the lake of fire will suffer for eternity. Please read my post from earlier in context. I dont need to recover full ideas that have already been stated. I showed you in the Greek and in context that punishment in the lake of fire will be for forever. On the furnace comment......cheap shot. Furnace is one of many ways to figuratively describe the lake of fire. Another words.....one nasty hot place!

C asked: “Who is the father of death? Is it not Satan as the Scripture I used above says?”

J~~He was a murderer from the beginning, because he got the first couple to sin and that brought about everyones death.(not torture)

C: Sigh, Jay you are truly wanting to argue about almost everything. Read Gen. 3. And then ask a woman that has given birth how fun it was to give birth to the precious child that God gave them (have never met a lady yet that gave birth without pain.....unless they drugged her up). Lets see what kind of dialogue you find yourself in. Or go talk to a person who lives off the land, and find out what kind of fun they have doing that, and what its like when living off the land fails. And see if you can get every woman on the face of the planet to agree that having their husband rule over them all the time is a picnic (hides the computer from his wife). Your stuck on this term torture. Perhaps a good words, and at other times.....not good for the context. This comment of yours.....does not work for eternal punishment. But....your entitled to your opinion.

C said: “The curse of death is done away with for the enemy will be gone!”

J~~The last “enemy” death will be gone because Jesus has paid for our sin. Sin is the cause of death. When all things are returned to God, and we are reconciled to Him through Jesus, then it will be said death is no more.

C: (Dances before the Lord in a jig because there is agreement) Death will be no more, but there will be eternal blessings of being with Christ, and their be eternal punishment for the disobedient (see previous passages in previous postings).

C: “And yes, of course.....the Bible calls it the second death, which will be eternal punishment in the lake of fire."

J~~ the lake of fire IS the second death. God said the punishment for Adam was what? Death. So…Eternal punishment is eternal “Death”.

C: (Stops dancing the jig and breaths a deep sigh again). Your simply over looking all the Scriptures and the Greek that I gave you. The death you use is only in figurative language. Other passages in the Bible do not agree with the way your are handling this. Once again, let Scripture interpret Scripture. Look at the common themes. Look at the truth in the stories. Judge properly through the Holy Spirit what is figurative and what is not.....but yet look for the truth in the figurative......never over look the truth!

C: “I asked you to re-evaluate your emotions and how they impact your use of the Word. I did not ask you to re-evaluate your beliefs. “

J~~Ok, then I’m sorry and I apologize. It is frustrating sometimes. You try to show people things that are so clear.

C: Apology accepted! Yes, tell me about it! I deal with it every Sunday.......no just not Sundays, but 24/7. I am constantly amazed at how little Christians know about the very Word that was used by God that aided Christ in saving them and teaches them about their sanctification process. John chapter one makes it very clear....He is the "logos"....the Word. But yet......we allow our Savior to collect dust on the book shelf (figurative language Jay....chuckle). But we should crave His Word like we crave our foods and drinks. And the sad fact.......most Christians no more about their last meal then they know about their God.

J~~Thats part of why the Hell doctrine was adopted, Because religious leaders thought the idea of death wasn’t scary or bad enough. People needed to be kept under control and paying indulgences. They could control them better if they were afraid of hell. Kind of like the government uses fear today. Fear is an effective controlling devise. ~ For a while.

C: God is the Author of the Bible. Religious leaders are not. They used what God stated to suite their needs. It should never be used in such manners. It is a sword that can pierce, and when family uses it on each other......they bleed. This is not right. But I truly believe Jay.....because of so many common verses, Greek, and figurative languages that give truth.....that the lake of fire is eternal punishment.

J: The thought of being separated from God eternally isn’t enough? Isn’t death bad enough for people? Not enjoying a beautiful day of life again? Do you ever want to die? Can you think of a time that you would?

C: I hear your heart cry Jay. You obviously have some people that you love dearly and you fear for their spiritual condition. I think we all wrestle with this. To me personally .....yes..... separation from God is hell. I so pray.......pray so hard that death would be enough. But the history of humanity has shown that it is not enough. There are so many Lazaruss out there.....its terrifying. How I long for their salvation. Christ would never lie to us....that when Lazarus begged Abraham to give him water for his tongue by using the tip of his finger.......He was telling us that their is no death.....that those in the lake of fire will be aware of their suffering.....their torture. Say what you will......but even in sharing a parable....a story.....giving of an illustration.........Christ would never lie about the truths that they represent. And the truth of the matter is right there before you: Lazarus was tortured for a lack of water......tortured over the fact of family needing to know what he learned......for them to be warned. We need to hear his hearts cry! We have to take Christ to the lost! We got to share the Words of life with them! We have to fight for them until we breath our last!

J: The 9 or so Scriptures you mention in your post involving the soul I will discuss but later, and on the immortal soul topic. Ok?

C: Cannot promise I will be around after this Jay. My family, my ministry.....needs more of my time. I have a little girl growing up way too fast for her dad. I want every second I can get with her and with my precious wife whom are a gift from our common Savior. Ever second I spend in this forum is a second I loose with them, and I wont get them back. I am not saying your not important. I simply stating......its time for me to be a good steward of what God has given me. I hope you will respect this. Besides, were getting repetitive now. A sign that we have brought this to a close.
I do wish to say this before I part: Yes.....we disagree. But it doesnt stop us from being family. I see a God of love, but of justice too. When you read Gods Word.....you see love....and a justice that is somewhat different. At the end of the day.......we are still family.

In the love of Christ and in the peace of Christ.....blessings upon all of you from our Lord Savior.....Jesus Christ!

a brother

Ps. Please pray for my best friend. I just found out today that he was in very serious car crash. His name is Stacy....a husband.....a father of two wonderful little girls. He has not woken up since the accident. His brain is swelled and bruised. And now he is running a fever. Positive note: His heart beat went up when his little girl whispered in his ear how much she loved him. Hes in there still......Lord bring him out!

Pss. Alpha. Time to stop using the intellect God blessed you with to feed your excuses. Its obvious you have been starving for a long time, and you know deep down inside who is the only One who can feed you. SO.....dont go thinking yourself right out of heaven! Praying for you!

Alpha - 1/23/10 @ 9:18 AM

I eat quite well. Thanks anyways. ;)

jay.me - 1/23/10 @ 1:51 PM


The Bible is Gods word and is my only authority. I have posted Scripture that does not fit into your dogma. It is probably disconcerting to you. The teaching of hellfire has a long history and has come a long way, and by now is deeply entrenched into the minds of many people. I understand how you must feel, especially in a position you say you are in. Pastors are in a heightened position of responsibility. You are accountable to God for what you teach people. So if indeed there is NO burning hell awaiting the wicked as you teach...What a heavy burden for you to acknowledge and carry. I was taught hellfire in Church and used to think that way, but I learned and accepted the truth about God from his word. I lovingly ask you to not let pride, or fear of losing your position, or even being accused of being in a “cult” or anything else stop you from seeking and accepting and teaching the truth.

Remember this Christopher, the early Christians were the minority and accused of being a cult by the so called majority. The Jewish system was the majority of it’s time. But what did Jesus say about the Pharisees?


Don’t fear man and what they can do or say or threaten you with…don’t be afraid to speak the truth. God is stronger than them!

(Matthew 10:24-29) “A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a slave above his master. 25 “It is enough for the disciple that he become like his teacher, and the slave like his master. If they have called the head of the house Beelzebul, how much more will they malign the members of his household!
26 “Therefore do not fear them, for there is nothing concealed that will not be revealed, or hidden that will not be known. 27 “What I tell you in the darkness, speak in the light; and what you hear whispered in your ear, proclaim upon the housetops. 28 “Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."


Another warning for us all...not saying about you specifically Christopher, but there are many people who pretend to be something to try and lead people away. Saying things like it is ok to practice homosexuality. I know of at least one major denomination who does this very thing! Even has openly gay pastors. My point, the Bible should be our only source for truth. Not a denomination.(major or not)

(Matthew 7:15-23)“Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 “You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? 17 “So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 “A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. 19 “Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 “So then, you will know them by their fruits.
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’"


I think it best that we don’t talk anymore. Anything further would be a fruitless debate. It isn’t about winning an argument for me Christopher, Its about teaching the truth. If you dont agree with me ok. And Im asking you if indeed you are a brother and are showing love… do not post to me anymore.

I will never believe in a burning hell, because Gods word does not teach it. And at this point I can only hope that you will come to an accurate knowledge of God. I’ll pray for you, and your friend, and your family. In sisterly love, Jay.

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