What is hell? What do you think? What does Gods word say.....
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112 replies on this topic
Alpha - 1/12/10 @ 10:17 AM
Lol. Just your inane interpretation of it. :)
Jonathan - 1/12/10 @ 10:50 AM
How is it insane? There is evidence to back it all up.
Alpha - 1/12/10 @ 12:16 PM
You dont seem to understand the concept of objectivity.
Jonathan - 1/13/10 @ 9:55 AM
My ears have not been tickled. The KJV is absolute truth. If you dont believe it then why dont you write us a perfect bible. Maybe you should do a detailed search of how the KJV was wrote and where it comes from before you attack it.
Kasey - 1/12/10 @ 12:24 PM
Heres a point Id like to make: John 5:28-29, "Dont be so surprised! Indeed the time is coming when all the dead in their graves shall hear the voice of Gods Son, and shall rise again—those who have done good, to eternal life; and those who have continued in evil, to judgment."
Those who have DONE GOOD will have eternal life, while those who have continued in evil will receive JUDGEMENT. It doesnt say anywhere in that verse that those who have continued in evil will have eternal life in hell. It doesnt even specify for those who have done good - it doesnt say "heaven," it just says "eternal life," because Heaven IS the only place you can have eternal life!
Jonathan - 1/12/10 @ 1:52 PM
Kasey you are probably reading a perversion of Gods word. The KJV does not say anything close to that !
John 5:28-29 (KJV) (28)Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in which all that are in their graves shall hear his voice,(29)And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnnation.
Once you die your soul goes to heaven or hell...both places you CAN NOT die. The bible is clear on that. If you read my past posts on Hell and what Jesus said about it you will notice that. He repeatedly says " where their worm dieth not."
jay.me - 1/12/10 @ 2:17 PM
No your not Kasey. The truth can be found even if you study the KJV. Just a lot harder with all of the mistranslations of the words.
I really dont know how saying the worm doesnt die (figurative speech) equals a soul doesnt die.
Gods word clearly states the soul that is sinning it SHALL die.
Clear to all who want to see.
Jonathan - 1/12/10 @ 6:11 PM
Mistranslations of the words? Jay you may wanta go study the KJV more a lil bit. KJV is the only Bible that has NO errors in it ! And that has been proven. Just read my posts defending the KJV.
Alpha - 1/12/10 @ 7:00 PM
"KJV is the only Bible that has NO errors in it ! And that has been proven."
-Lol. BS. :)
John - 1/12/10 @ 8:03 PM
this is one of the few times i will side with alpha.
jay.me - 1/12/10 @ 8:22 PM
Johnathan,
Please stop looking for websites to have your "ears tickled" :) Look up those original words for hell (and see how KJV renders them) The parallel Bible is good for that. and pray for help! We ALL need Gods spirit to guide us to the truth.
Jonathan - 1/11/10 @ 10:28 PM
The New King James Version
We will now give some special attention to one of the deadliest translations on the market--the New King James Version, first published in 1979. It is a deadly version because its editors have succeeded in deceiving the body of Christ on two main points: (1) That its a King James Bible (which is a lie), and (2) that its based on the Textus Receptus (which is only a partial truth). The following information should be helpful when dealing with Christians who have been swindled by the Laodicean lovers of filthy lucre:
1. The text of the NKJV is copyrighted by Thomas Nelson Publishers, while there is no copyright today on the text of the KJV. If your KJV has maps or notes, then it may have a copyright, but the text itself does not.
2. Theres nothing "new" about the NKJV logo. It is a "666" symbol of the pagan trinity which was used in the ancient Egyptian mysteries. It was also used by satanist Aleister Crowley around the turn of this century. The symbol can be seen on the New King James Bible, on certain rock albums (like Led Zepplins), or you can see it on the cover of such New Age books as The Aquarian Conspiracy. (See Riplingers tract on the NKJV.)
3. It is estimated that the NKJV makes over 100,000 translation changes, which comes to over eighty changes per page and about three changes per verse! A great number of these changes bring the NKJV in line with the readings of such Alexandrian perversions as the NIV and the RSV. Where changes are not made in the text, subtle footnotes often give credence to the Westcott and Hort Greek Text.
4. While passing off as being true to the Textus Receptus, the NKJV IGNORES the Receptus over 1,200 times.
5. In the NKJV, there are 22 omissions of "hell", 23 omissions of "blood", 44 omissions of "repent", 50 omissions of "heaven", 51 omissions of "God", and 66 omissions of "Lord". The terms "devils", "damnation", "JEHOVAH", and "new testament" are completely omitted.
6. The NKJV demotes the Lord Jesus Christ. In John 1:3, the KJV says that all things were made "by" Jesus Christ, but in the NKJV, all things were just made "through" Him. The word "Servant" replaces "Son" in Acts 3:13 and 3:26. "Servant" replaces "child" in Acts 4:27 and 4:30. The word "Jesus" is omitted from Mark 2:15, Hebrews 4:8, and Acts 7:45.
7. The NKJV confuses people about salvation. In Hebrews 10:14 it replaces "are sanctified" with "are being sanctified", and it replaces "are saved" with "are being saved" in I Corinthians 1:18 and II Corinthians 2:15. The words "may believe" have been replaced with "may continue to believe" in I John 5:13. The old straight and "narrow" way of Matthew 7:14 has become the "difficult" way in the NKJV.
8. In II Corinthians 10:5 the KJV reads "casting down imaginations", but the NKJV reads "casting down arguments". The word "thought", which occurs later in the verse, matches "imaginations", not "arguments". This change weakens the verse.
9. The KJV tells us to reject a "heretick" after the second admonition in Titus 3:10. The NKJV tells us to reject a "divisive man". How nice! Now the Alexandrians and Ecumenicals have justification for rejecting anyone they wish to label as "divisive men".
10. According to the NKJV, no one would stoop so low as to "corrupt" Gods word. No, they just "peddle" it (II Cor. 2:17). The reading matches the Alexandrian versions.
11. Since the NKJV has "changed the truth of God into a lie", it has also changed Romans 1:25 to read "exchanged the truth of God for the lie". This reading matches the readings of the new perversions, so how say ye its a King James Bible?
12. The NKJV gives us no command to "study" Gods word in II Timothy 2:15.
13. The word "science" is replaced with "knowledge" in I Timothy 6:20, although "science" has occurred in every edition of the KJV since 1611! How say ye its a King James Bible?
14. The Jews "require" a sign, according to I Corinthians 1:22 (and according to Jesus Christ - John 4:48), but the NKJV says they only "request" a sign. They didnt "request" one when signs first appeared in Exodus 4, and there are numerous places throughout the Bible where God gives Israel signs when they havent requested anything (Exo. 4, Exo. 31:13, Num. 26:10, I Sam. 2:34, Isa. 7:10-14, Luke 2:12, etc). They "require" a sign, because signs are a part of their national heritage.
15. The King James reading in II Corinthians 5:17 says that if any man is in Christ he is a new "creature", which matches the words of Christ in Mark 16:15. The cross reference is destroyed in the NKJV, which uses the word "creation."
16. As a final note, wed like to point out how the NKJV is very inconsistent in its attempt to update the language of the KJV. The preface to the NKJV states that previous "revisions" of the KJV have "sought to keep abreast of changes in English speech", and also that they too are taking a "further step toward this objective". However, when taking a closer look at the language of the NKJV, we find that oftentimes they are stepping BACKWARDS! Please note a few examples of how well the NKJV has "kept abreast of the changes in the English language":
SCRIPTURE KJV NKJV
Ezra 31:4 little rivers rivulets
Psalms 43:1 Judge Vindicate
Psalms 139:43 thoughts anxieties
Isaiah 28:1 fat verdant
Amos 5:21 smell savor
Matthew 26:7 box flask
Luke 8:31 the deep the abyss
John 10:41 did performed
Luke 19:11-27 pounds minas
John 19:9 judgement hall Praetorium
Acts 1:8 bowels entrails
Acts 18:12 deputy proconsul
Acts 21:38 uproar insurrection
Acts 27:30 boat skiff
Hebrews 12:8 bastard illegitimate
Jonathan - 1/11/10 @ 10:29 PM
The New Scofield Reference Bible
Another counterfeit "KJV" is the New Scofield Reference Bible (NSRB). "King James Version" is clearly printed on the cover, but since when has it been safe to judge a book by its cover? Please note the following:
1. Dr. C.I. Scofield had been dead many years when the NSRB was published in 1967. He would have never approved of having his name on a "bible" that alters the text of the KJV. The 1909 and 1917 editions of the Scofield Reference Bible do NOT change the text. Therefore the NSRB of 1967 is NOT a Scofield Bible and it is NOT a KJV.
2. Dr. Scofield would have never referred to baptism as a "sacrament," but the NSRB takes the liberty to do so in an Acts 8 footnote.
3. The NSRB changes the KJV with "better readings" in over 6,500 places.
4. In the introduction to the NSRB, 1967 edition, E. Schuyler English tries to justify changing the KJV text on the basis that Dr. Scofield saw the need to update his reference Bible after only eight years. Yes, Dr. Scofield did update his Bible after only eight years, but HE NEVER CHANGED THE TEXT!, and he never granted anyone else permission to do so. Only the NOTES were revised! (The Judgment Seat of Christ is going to be very interesting to say the least!)
5. In many places the NSRB agrees with the readings of the new translations, rather than the KJV, so it cannot possibly be a KJV. For example, "a son of the gods" appears in Daniel 3:25, rather than "the Son of God" (KJV). In Genesis 1:28, Adam is told to "fill" the earth, instead of "replenish" it, which isnt the same at all. A great reference to television and magazines is destroyed when the NSRB replaces "pictures" with "stone idols" in Numbers 33:52. Then, of course, the NSRB lines up right behind the ASV in places like I Timothy 6:20, Acts 4:27, and Romans 1:25.
6. Dr. William Grady addresses the NSRB in his book, Final Authority. His research includes the following on page 316: "A random survey of the NSRB margins in Philippians alone revealed a total of 29 changes from the King James Bible. Of these, twenty-one (72%) were traced to either the RSV or the NASV. The skeptic can ckeck it out for himself: Philippians 1:7, 8, 23, 27; 2:1, 15, 25, 27, 28; 3:1, 8, 17, 19, 20, 21; 4:3, 6, 14, 15, 21, and 22." The "New Scofield Reference Bible" in the "King James Version" is NOT new, is NOT a Scofield Bible, and it is certainly NOT a King James Version.
Back to the TABLE OF CONTENTS
The Various Editions of the 1611 A.V.
If someone decides to produce a "new Bible version", then they must also convince Christians that there is a NEED and a justifiable CAUSE for the new version. One of the deceitful excuses being used today for producing new versions is that the King James Bible has been revised several times since 1611, and that a new revision is needed once again. While spreading this piece of deceitful misinformation, the KJV critics hold their breath, hoping that no one will be intelligent enough to ask for specific details about these "revisions". The many revisions that have occurred since 1881 bear NO RESEMBLANCE to the various EDITIONS of the KJV prior to 1881. The modern revisors are just trying to justify their sins!
There were only FOUR actual EDITIONS of the King James Bible produced after 1611: 1629, 1638, 1762, and 1769. These were not translations (like the new versions SINCE 1881), and they really werent even "revisions".
The 1629 edition was simply an effort to correct printing errors, and two of the original King James translators assisted in the work.
The 1638 edition of the KJV also dealt with printing errors, especially words and clauses overlooked by the printers. About 72% of the textual corrections in the KJV were done by 1638, only 27 years after the first printing.
Please bear in mind the fact that printing was a very laborious task prior to 1800. Publishing a flawless work was almost impossible. Even today, with computers and advanced word processors, printing errors are still frequently made. Imagine what it was like in the 1600s!
Then, in 1762 and 1769, two final editions of the KJV were published. Both of these involved spelling changes, which became necessary as the English language became more stabilized and spelling rules were established.
There were no new translations, and there were really no new revisions published in 1629, 1638, 1762, or 1769. These were simply EDITIONS of the 1611 KJV, which corrected printing errors and spelling. Those who try to equate these editions with the modern translations are just being deceitful or stupid--or both. The many other so-called "revisions" of the KJV that occurred in 1613, 1616, 1617, and 1743 are nothing more than running changes and touch-up work at the printers. The REAL revisions and translations do not start appearing until 1881 (RV) and 1901 (ASV). So if some punk walks up with a smirky grin on his face and asks you, "So which King James Bible do you have, the 1611, the 1629, the 1638, the 1762, or the 1769?", you can simply state that you have a 1769 edition of the King James 1611 Authorized Version.
Dr. David F. Reagan has an excellent pamphlet available on this subject. It can be ordered from: Trinity Baptist Temple Bookstore, 5709 N. Broadway, Knoxville, TN, 37918. Telephone: 615-688-0780 615-688-0780 .
Back to the TABLE OF CONTENTS
Why the KJV Translators Did Not Accept the Apocrypha as Scripture
Another favorite lie of the critics is that the original KJV of 1611 included the Apocrypha, which no true Christian today accepts as Scripture. The Apocrypha is a collection of several pagan writings which the Catholic church accepts as inspired Scripture. In fact, the Council of Trent (1546) pronounced a CURSE upon anyone who denied that these books were inspired. The King James translators did NOT consider the books to be inspired Scripture, nor did they include them in the canon as such. They merely placed the Apocryphal books BETWEEN the Old and New testament as a historical document, not as Scripture. Their reasons for not accepting the Apocrypha as Scripture are listed on page 185-186 of the book Translators Revived, by Alexander McClure. The seven reasons are basically as follows:
1. Not one of them is in the Hebrew language like the rest of the Old Testament books.
2. Not one of the writers lays any claim to inspiration.
3. These books were never acknowledged as sacred Scriptures by the Jewish church, and therefore were never sanctioned by our Lord.
4. They were not allowed a place among the sacred books, during the first four centuries of the Christian church.
5. They contain fabulous statements, and statements which contradict not only the canonical Scriptures, but themselves. For example, in the Books of Maccabees alone, Antiochus Epiphanes dies three times in three places!
6. It inculcates doctrines at variance with the Bible, such as prayers for the dead and sinless perfection.
7. It teaches immoral practices, such as lying, suicide, assassination and magical incantation.
Back to the TABLE OF CONTENTS
"Errors" in the King James Bible
Critics of the KJV have a nasty habit of pointing out what they believe to be errors, contradictions, and mistranslations in the Authorized Version. The sad fact is that they usually point these things out to young men and women in Christian colleges who do not know any better. Many young Christians, including young preachers, are having their faith in Gods word destroyed by the very people they look to for spiritual guidance!
These so-called "errors" that are presented by such infidels have been explained and written about so many times that its a shame to even have to mention it again. There isnt enough space in a booklet of this size to embark upon a lengthy rebuttle of such claims. Besides, it has already been done quite well by others. Nevertheless, for the sake of showing the reader the nature of the so-called "errors" in the AV, we will take the time to briefly deal with just a few:
1. According to the critics, the word "Easter" in Acts 12:4 is a mistranslation, because the Greek word is"pascha," and it is translated "passover" twenty-eight times in the New Testament, and it should be translated likewise in Acts 12:4.
This is what happens when a man is so hung up on "the Greek" that he cant read plain English. It should NOT be translated "passover" because the Passover had already passed. The "days of unleavened bread" had already begun (vs. 3), which means the Passover was over (Num. 28:16-18; Exo. 12:13-18). The Passover was always the fourteenth day of the first month, while the days of unleavened bread ran from the fifteenth through the twenty-first. Herod could not have been waiting for the Passover. Besides, why would a Gentile king like Herod be concerned about a Jewish feast day? "Easter" is from the pagan "Ishtar", the goddess that the pagans worshipped--Rome included. Herod wanted to wait until his pagan holiday was over before bringing Peter out to the people.
2. I John 5:7 is also the subject of much debate. It is argued that the verse lacks manuscript evidence and does not belong in the Bible. Being one of the greatest verses in the Bible on the Trinity, we should be suspicious of any oppositions to it.
The verse should NOT be omitted from the Bible. It is found in Greek manuscript 61, which probably forced Erasmus to include it in his third edition Greek text of 1522.
I John 5:7 is also found in Codex Ravianus, and in the margins of 88 and 629. It is also found in Old Latin manuscripts r and Speculum. It was quoted by Cyprian around A.D. 250, and two Spanish Bishops quoted it in the fourth century (Priscillkian and Idacius Clarus). Several African writers quote it in the fifth century, and Cassiodorus quotes it in the sixth century in Italy.
The fact that Siniaticus and Vaticanus do not include the verse means nothing to a true Bible believer. After all, Vaticanus omits the entire book of Revelation, while keeping the Apocrypha!
3. Many argue that the KJV is in error with its use of the word "devils" instead of "demons". Again, this is due to an over emphasis on "the Greek" as well as a lack of faith in Gods ability to preserve His words in English. While protesting that "daimon" should be translated "demon", many have overlooked a great truth which the Holy Spirit has preserved in the Kings English. There is one true "Son of God", but many "sons of God". There is one true "Church", the Bride of Christ, but many local "churches". Likewise, there is one "Devil", but many "devils" under his control.
The word "demon" itself does not necessarily imply an evil spirit. Even Websters 1828 dictionary states that "the ancients believed that there were good and evil demons...", and New Agers of today believe likewise. Therefore, God led the KJV translators to translate "devils" instead of "demons" because every "daimon" in the Bible IS an evil spirit. The word "devil" makes that clear. Every "devil" in the Bible is under the authority of their father "the Devil".
4. Then we have "contradictions" like Exodus 24:10 and John 1:18. Exodus says the Israelites SAW God, while Jesus said in John that "no man hath seen God at any time". Contradiction, right? No, its only a matter of rightly dividing the word of truth (which you may not be practicing if II Tim. 2:15 has been altered in your "bible"). God is a Trinity, just like you and I. Were a body, a soul, and a spirit (I Ths. 5:23). The Israelites saw a physical manifestation of God, but not the SOUL of God, just as no one has ever seen your soul.
5. Numbers 25:9 says that 24,000 people died in a plague, but I Corinthians 10:8 says that only 23,000 died. Read I Corinthians 10:8 again and notice that 23,000 fell "in one day". The 24,000 died altogether in a few days.
You see, these are the kind of "errors" in the King James Bible. These are the reasons given for you to throw away your Bible and buy a new one. Dont fall for it. I have learned to always give God the benefit of a doubt, and to count the critics guilty until proven innocent. So far Ive been right. Anytime I see an "error" in the KJV I just assume that Im not learned enough in the Scriptures to explain it, but that it is NOT an error. I just pray about it and trust God. I NEVER correct the Book that God has honored for so long. Thank God, Im not that stupid.
Fifty Stumbling Stones of the Laodicean Translations
In this final section, Id like to point out one of the best things about the new versions. What might that be? It is the fact that we know where theyre going to alter Gods word before they do it! We know how to "checkem out" without having to waste our God-given time reading the whole translation. The following list includes fifty "check points" which anyone can use to expose a new translation. No translation will be guilty on all fifty counts, but any translation since 1881 will alter Gods word enough to prove that the revisionists do not have Gods best interest in heart. For emphasis, Ill present these items from Satans standpoint, briefly illustrating his purpose for many of the changes:
1. Genesis 1:29. Omit the word "meat" since there is no real flesh in the verse, only plant life. This will destroy the cross reference to the "meat offering" of Leviticus 2, which is really a GRAIN offering with no flesh. The Bible has its own built in dictionary, but lets not allow people to know it.
2. Genesis 3:5. Alter the word "gods" and the cross references to Psalm 82, I Corinthians 8:5, and II Corinthians 4:4 will be destroyed.
3. Genesis 22:1. The word "tempt" in the verse should be replaced with "try". Heres another case of the "built-in dictionary". James 1:2-3 explains the kind of tempting that this was, but lets hide it from as many Christians as possible.
4. Numbers 33:52. Someone might use the word "pictures" as a reference to television. Throw it out!
5. Isaiah 7:14. Attack the virgin birth by omitting the word "virgin". After all, the Hebrew word "almah" can mean a virgin, a damsel, or just a young woman. Laodicean Christians are too lazy to check Matthew 1:23 to see how Matthew translated it.
6. Daniel 3:25. Theres Jesus Christ in the Old Testament! Cant have that! Someone might get the idea that Hes eternal. Change "the Son of God" to "a son of the gods."
7. Micah 5:2. Another chance to attack the eternal existence of Christ. Throw out "everlasting".
8. Zechariah 9:9. Were not interested in anyone being SAVED, so omit the words "having salvation".
9. Matthew 1:25. Omit "firstborn" because it shows the reader that Mary had other children after Jesus and did NOT remain a perpetual virgin. Theyll never think to check Psalm 69:8, Galatians 1:19, or John 7:5.
10. Matthew 5:22. Lets create a contradiction by omitting the words "without a cause". This will make Jesus contradict Paul in Ephesians 4:26.
11. Matthew 6:13. Omit the "kingdom", the "power", and the "glory".
12. Matthew 27:54. Change "the Son of God" to "a son of God".
13. Mark 1:1. This is the only Gospel which refers to Christ as the "Son of God" in the very first verse. Throw it out.
14. Mark 16:9-20. Either throw out the last twelve verses of Mark or raise doubt about them in the margins and footnotes. The less we read of a resurrected Christ the better.
15. Luke 1:34. Change Marys words "I know not a man" to "I have no husband". This will allow for possible fornication between Mary and Joseph, which could make Joseph the father of Jesus.
16. Luke 2:33. Attack the virgin birth again by replacing "Joseph" with "father".
17. Luke 4:4. Omit "by every word of God". No one will think to check Deuteronomy 8:3.
18. Luke 23:42. Heres a sinner being saved by calling upon the name of the "Lord", which is in perfect tune with Romans 10:13. Replace the divine title "Lord" with the human name "Jesus".
19. Luke 24:51. Raise doubt about the ascension of Christ by omitting the words "carried up into heaven". Hopefully, no one will check Lukes later comments in Acts 1:1-2.
20. John 1:14. Omit the word "begotten", just like in John 1:18, 3:16, and 3:18.
21. Acts 1:3. Omit the word "infallible". Nothing is infallible.
22. Acts 4:27. Jesus wasnt Gods "child". He was only His "servant".
23. Acts 8:37. Either omit the entire verse or raise doubt about it, because this verse states that scriptural water baptism is conditional upon BELIEF.
24. Acts 12:4. Change "Easter" to "passover". No one will ever read Exodus and Numbers to find the truth.
25. Acts 17:22. Change "superstitious" to "religious".
26. Romans 1:18. Lets change "hold the truth in unrighteousness" to "suppress the truth", which is a much weaker reading.
27. Romans 1:25. Lets say they "exchanged the truth of God for a lie" instead of "changed the truth of God into a lie".
28. Romans 1:29. Throw out "fornication".
29. Romans 10:17. Replace the word "God" with "Christ". This will teach that faith comes by rallying around the person of Jesus alone and not by feeding on every word of God (Luke 4:4).
30. Romans 14:10. Change the word "Christ" to "God". This will prevent anyone from realizing that Jesus Christ is God when they read verse twelve.
31. I Corinthians 1:22. Change "require" to "request", and destroy the great truth about signs being for Israel.
32. II Corinthians 2:17. Since we are guilty of corrupting the word of God, replace the word "corrupt" with "peddle".
33. II Corinthians 5:17. Replace the word "creature" with "creation", although Mark 16:15 says "creature".
34. Ephesians 1:7. Throw out the "blood".
35. Philippians 3:21. People dont have "vile" bodies. They just have "lowly" bodies.
36. Colossians 1:14. Throw out the "blood".
37. I Thessalonians 5:22. Omit the word "appearance" so Christians will not be very concerned about their testimony.
38. I Timothy 3:16. The verse says that "God was manifest in the flesh". Attack the Deity of Christ and the Incarnation by throwing "God" clear out of the verse.
39. I Timothy 6:10. Change "all evil" to "all kinds of evil". 40. I Timothy 6:20. Since many heresies are taught today in the name of "science", and this verse gives a strong warning against "science falsely so-called", change the word "science" to "knowledge".
41. II Timothy 2:15. This is the only command in the Bible to "study" the word of God. Omit the word "study".
42. James 5:16. Lets justify Roman Catholic confessionals by changing the word "faults" to "sins".
43. I Peter 5:11. Omit "glory" and "dominion".
44. I John 1:7. Omit the word "Christ".
45. I John 4:3. Omit the words "Christ is come in the flesh".
46. I John 5:7. Theres the Trinity! Throw out the whole verse or insert marginal notes to raise doubt about it.
47. Revelation 1:5. Omit the word "blood".
48. Revelation 5:9. Omit the word "blood".
49. Revelation 11:15. Change the many "kingdoms" that Jesus Christ will receive to one singular "kingdom".
50. Revelation 11:17. Attack the Second Coming of Christ by omitting the words "art to come".
Alpha - 1/11/10 @ 10:38 PM
I read two lines, and the sheer and utter idiocy surprised even me!
I started to point out all the logical fallacies, but soon realized that if I did, there wouldnt be any of your post left. :)
Jonathan - 1/12/10 @ 9:42 AM
Alpha whats wrong? You dont like the Truth?
jay.me - 1/13/10 @ 1:57 PM
First of all how can there be a PERFECT Bible translation? There are definitely some that are much better than others.
The only ABSOLUTE truth is Gods word.
If you are as absolutely insistent on believing the hell doctrine, then I would agree that the KJV is the perfect translation for you.
But for those who are seeking the truth, then it is a misleading translation....good grief it cant even be consistent with one little word.
Jonathan - 1/13/10 @ 2:07 PM
The KJV is Gods Word. It is TRUTH. You evidently havent studied this or you would know.
Christopher - 1/15/10 @ 2:20 AM
Grace and peace to all!
My name is pastor Christopher. For many days now I have avoided posting. God would not leave me alone on this....He kept urging me to post. So here is me....being obedient after loosing a wrestling match with God. Simply stated, I am normally just too busy, and my time is limited. However, I am a new fan of NOTW and I took some private time to investigate the web site. I enjoyed their rich ministry....enjoyed everything until I got to this discussion. Before I go further let me say this: Jay and Jonathan God bless you both for loving God and His Word as you do! You both caused me to step back and re-examine beliefs I have had for many years. It is my personal belief that if we are not teachable then we have fallen asleep in our faith. Lord forbid this day should ever come. It is my hope that you both are in agreement with me. If so, then join me in plunging deep into Gods Word. Please put your pride to the side. Stop here.....pray for a moment and ask God to speak to you as you take this journey with a brother in Christ who loves you both though I have never met you.....yet (Praise be to Christ we will have eternity to remedy this). This journey may stretch you but as I tell myself and the flock God has given to me for a time......embrace the stretching of the faith because its what sanctification is all about....is it not? To be stretched is to experience some pain, but after the pain comes strength, wisdom, knowledge, and a fearless heart for the future.....not for our glory but for His!
Hell - (Geenna "Gehenna," Tartaroo) Reference to Hinnom Valley, SW of Jerusalem. Ahaz and Manasseh permitted human sacrifices there to the enemy (2 Chron. 28:3, 33:6), and because of this it would get the nickname, "The Valley of Slaughter" (Jer. 19:6). In the time of Jesus, it was a garbage dump where fires burned all day to burn up the waste, which gave the idea of eternal fire to His (Jesus) hearers. This is beyond symbolic.....He is also giving a literal spiritual truth that Hell is an everlasting place of torment (see below for the Scripture references). In short, this is the reason why Jesus uses this to describe hell. Hinnom was a place everyone knew, and they all knew it was a horrible place dating back as far as Ahaz and Manasseh. They knew not only was it a dump site but also an ancient evil worship site where people were sacrificed, which means that in the past alive children did in fact go there to suffer as they burned slowly in a container over a fire (heartbroken deep sigh from the author). He was giving them a visual idea of how terrible hell was that they could identify with it. It is God who cast the lost into hell (Luke 12:5). The O. T. Sheol is where the dead bodies go. Its a place where God will bring back the righteous....restore their life (Ps. 49:15; Isa. 25:8). And there will be a final judgement and retribution for the wicked and the evil they have committed (Ps. 21:10; Ps. 140:10; Mal. 4:1-2). In the N. T. hell is an intermediate state for the dead lost. It is not the final destiny of the ones who chose the enemy rather then Christ Jesus. This is not purgatory....no such thing! However, it exist to hold sinners (Luke 16:19-31), for the requital and retribution of sinful deeds without genuine repentance (Matt. 16:27; Rom. 2:4-6), and in the end of days God will create the second death....the lake of fire (see below). Its also important to note: When Jesus died His body did not not just lay there oblivious to all things! The Bible tells us that Christ went and preached to the spirits in prison, who were disobedient (demons who had been shackled since the time of Noah, and made a public spectacle over them by declaring His sovereignty over them, death, and hell (1 Pet. 3:18-20, Col. 2:14-15).
Punishment in hell for eternity is Biblical
1) Eternal punishment of the wicked dead (Matt. 25:32, 46). Is described as including all nations. Nations in Greek is ethnos, which is translated as races, tribes, peoples. Meaning: eternal punishment is for all the lost (not just the Jews, but the Gentiles as well), because of their choice to worship the enemy (Some may question God about doing such a thing. We must remember that in the book of Romans, chapter one, God made Himself known to all but they made idols instead to worship. God says they are without excuse. Therefore, God gives them over to their sins, which eventually leads to death (James 1:15).....then hell....then the lake of fire. The lost chose their path. Some still cry foul and say this goes against the very personality of God. God needs no defense from any of us. Just read Romans chapter nine. Let God be God!). But I also want to make this clear.....God clearly states that the kingdom of heaven belongs to the children (Matt. 19:14). God is a just God and will handle not only the saved but the lost justly.
2) Everlasting fire, and everlasting punishment (Matt. vs. 41, 46) Curses or accursed: Greek - "kataraomai" to execrate (the lost are loathed), so they are doomed (death and destruction). Eternal "aionios" - perpetual ie. forever. Fire "pur" is simply....fiery. Summary: The lost who die are loathed by God for choosing the enemy over Him, and because of their choice they will experience a tormenting fire that will last forever.
3) Unquenchable fire (Matt. 3:12). His threshing floor is what He has created....the world, and all its nations...all peoples (not just the Jews to whom John was talking to). Unquenchable "asbestos" - not extinguished, perpetual...like eternity. Fire (same as above). Summary: There is going to come a day that God is going to separate the lost from the saved. The lost are going to experience eternal...perpetual, none extinguishable fiery torment for making their choice to worship the enemy vss God.
4) Shame and everlasting contempt (Dan. 12:2). "Contempt "deraown" To repulse, which is an object of aversion, abhorring....worthy of scorn." In the end of days God is going to bring all the dead bodies to judge them according to what is written in the book of life (Rev. 20:10-15). Some (all nations are applied since Daniel is speaking about the end of days) will find eternal life and some will be abhorred by God for eternity, because they chose to worship the enemy rather then Him. To be abhorred by God in the end is to be cast into the lake of fire where His presence will not be (Rev. 20:11-15). The lake of fire is the final place for the lost to go for eternal punishment for all unrepentant sins....both angels and humans. It is described in Rev. 19:20 as a place that burns with brimstone (a yellow sulfuric rock that often accompanies fires and produces suffocating gases). As bad as this sounds it does not even come close to describing the ultimate pain of being separated from God for eternity. Therefore, it can be concluded that this final judgment place will be a place hot, suffocating, and beyond bear-ability......a place without God. It is Gods judgment upon those who have chosen to worship the enemy instead of Him. You simply cannot breeze past the lake of fire and all these terms that deal with punishment. You must use them properly and not put them in the skeleton closet as if they are something to be ashamed of. Let God be God!
5) A place where the worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched (Mark 9:44-49); Jesus is quoting Isa. 66:24. His purpose is to give an extreme visual picture to His listeners how grievous sin is. He wants His listeners to understand that to cause a child to fall is a very serious matter. But He also wanted His listeners to understand how serious the concept of going to hell is. His example of hell is an example they all knew, because it was in their backyard so to speak.....the Valley of Hinnom. They all knew of the dump site. They knew about the constant fires that burned up the waste....day in and day out. They knew about the stink of waste. They knew about the suffering of torment from history past from those who worshiped the demons. They knew just by going by it to do daily business what a wretched place it was. Here Jesus is simply using the Valley of Hinnom as one way to describe hell, which is exactly where so many loose site of what Christ is teaching about hell. To often teachers get hung up on the terms rather then looking at the visual picture as well. Christ was a master of at using this technique to teach His disciples as well as us today. His messages are timeless for believers, and not always meant to be just for the 12 disciples. Another example is the worm not dying. It is not safe nor wise to ignore what Christ is painting for us so we can imagine hell. He is informing us that in hell the person will experience what it feels like to be ravaged by worms that cannot be killed. This is an illustration that tells us that hell is a place of torment and the person that is in hell will experience this, and that there is nothing symbolic about the punishment to be experienced. If that person was simply dead then there would be no need to state, "a place where the worm does not die," nor would He need to state, "the fire is not quenched." Hell is a place of experiencing misery. Summary: Hell is a place where the unrepentant lost sinners will go, because they have chosen to worship the enemy rather then the living God.....Christ Jesus our Lord and Savior. In this place they have chosen they will know what it means to truly suffer. Therefore, we better make sure that we live our lives in Christ, and not with the enemy who is constantly putting strongholds into our lives.....like slander, disunity, accusing, anger, pride, etc. Question? Has this been seen in the posting of this section of the forum? Be honest!
6) A place of torments and flame (Luke 16:23-24). Torment "basanos" - torture (the infliction of pain from punishment). Hell "hades" in the Greek- Unseen, place of departed souls, grave, or hell. In the N. T. The LXX translates this from the Hebrew (O. T.) word sheol. The realm of the dead. However, in the N. T. "hades" is used to describe the place where the wicked dead go. The rabbis taught that there was two departments in sheol: 1) one for the wicked; and 2) one for the righteous. However, Christ throws a wrench into this thought. The righteous dead go immediately (their souls) into the presence of God, which is to say........God is the God of the living when they live in Him (Luke 9:30; 23:43; 2 Cor. 5:8; Phil. 1:23, Rev. 20:4), and not the God of the dead! In Ezek. 18:4, the soul "nephesh" - means, breathing creature, also body. Another words God is using the term "souls" as "human body." The body (or person) who sins will die, which is exactly what James wrote (James 1:15). Sins final out come is always death! After death....hell....after hell.....the lake of fire. And as for a body not being able to burn forever.....Thomas would say, "How did my finger go into the flesh of Christ where He had been punctured after His death, but yet as my fingers sunk into His flesh....He was alive!" God is God....let Him be God! He can do what He desires with the flesh of our bodies. He make them fit for eternity with Him or eternity in Hell. Let Him be God! Flame "phlox" - a blaze. Fire is consuming and destructive. Gods judgment which is the punishment. Summary: Jesus tells a story. Is it true or is it fiction? It does not matter! Christ wants to give the Pharisees and us a very startling truth: hell is a place of torment and it is not partial to wealth, status, or anything else in life. Bottom line: The lost make a choice to serve the enemy rather then God. The prophets are speaking to them from Gods Word even today, but like the lost from the past......they choose the enemy over Him. The lost choose punishment over abundant life! This is a stern warning not just to the pharisees, but to everyone! Why do I say this? Christ taught this to His disciples. In the book of acts His disciples would start ministering to the Gentiles. The concept of hell will continue in their ministries just how Christ taught them. Its how we know about it today, which means its still teaching us today! It must be taught properly, because it is a truth that can scare someone right into the arms of Christ. And the Bible teaches us that to fear God is to have wisdom (Ps. 111:10). So it not a bad thing to teach this Biblical truth about hell, because it wakes people up to God!
7) Everlasting (or eternal) destruction (2 Thess. 1:7-9). Everlasting - see above. Destruction "olethros" - to destroy (to defeat utterly), ruin (disastrous disintegration of someones life), i.e. punishment (the infliction of a penalty as retribution for an offense). Summary: When Christ sets things right those who have chosen not to obey His gospel will be punished for eternity! They have made a conscious choice to commit the unpardonable sin.....blasphemy against the Spirit, which shall not be forgiven (Matt. 12:31). What is this unpardonable sin? That is to reject Gods Son....Jesus Christ who is also the Holy Spirit. Which is to reject Gods saving grace. This is exactly what lost people do.
8) A place of torment with fire and brimstone where the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever (Rev. 14:9-13). Vs. 9, "If anyone (or man) worships the beast," the term "If anyone (or man) means exactly what it says....."If anyone," which is all people. This includes people in the Jewish community and those in the gentile community. As what has been stated.....the lost have made an active choice to worship the enemy. God will not tolerate this, because He is a jealous God who will visit the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generation of those who hate Him (Exod. 20:40-6). But this is also the same God whom we love that shows loving kindness to thousands, to those who love Him and keep His commandments! Lets not forget that Christ did not come to abolish the commandments but to fulfill them (Matt. 5:16-18). These same commandments are written upon our hearts now so they become everything that we are (Rom. 2:15; Heb. 8:9-11). And it must not be forgotten that the gentiles have been grafted into the vines of Gods family, which means we share in the covenant God made with Abraham (Rom. 11:12-24; Gen. 17:1-5). Vs. 10, "Drink of the wine of the wrath of God." Not only is God a God of love but He is also a God of wrath. Wrath "thumos" - passion that causes one to breath hard because of indignation (anger that is provoked by what is perceived as unfair treatment). When God is not treated fairly by His creation such as choosing to worship the enemy over Him.....His wrath is ignited; therefore, He will justly do what He sees fit to punish those who have willfully chosen to love something other then Him. This wrath will be measured in full strength (meaning all of His wrath will be poured into His anger "orge" - violent passion, justifiable abhorrence, punishment, and even vengeance). Those who choose the enemy will experience the torment (In the Greek this is torture: severe mental and physical suffering) of His anger by being punished through fire and brimstone. They sadly will burn and suffocate on the fumes (deep sad sigh from the author). As if this is not enough.....the Bible tells us that the smoke from their torment goes up forever and ever, and they will have no rest day or night (vs. 11). Some may cry foul! How could a loving God do such a thing? As Rom. 9:19-21 tells us.....God will be God! He has the right to do what He pleases with what He has created. Its neither wise nor smart to challenge His sovereignty. God will not tolerate being put to the test. This is exactly what the enemy wants us to do.....question God and His sovereignty. Why? The enemy wants our emotions to rule us. No better way for our emotions to rule us then to make us worry about loved ones who may be going to hell. If we get focused more on this then on Gods Word.......then we can mislead ourselves and others into an improper viewing of Gods character and Word. (Lord Jesus! We fall before you and cry for the lost. Lord please save them. Use us, and others to share Christ with them so they may not experience hell. Please Lord! If you have to turn their lives upside down and make them miserable......then Lord make them so. We rather them be miserable here and accept you because of it rather then spending an eternity in hell being miserable. Please Lord! Even now I pray you stir their hearts. Remove the veil the enemy has placed before their eyes. Let them see you Lord Jesus instead of the pleasures of the world that hold them in shackles. Expose the enemy to them.....reveal all their ugliness! Reveal the false treasures they pan handle that is really death! Please Lord....save them! Bind the strong man in their lives.....clear their house......and save them!)
9) A lake of fire and brimstone where the wicked are tormented day and night forever and ever (Rev. 20:10-15). God is truth and just in all of actions......we must understand this truth and not let it sway our emotions (Deut. 32:3-5). Bottom line to this passage is that God will cast into the lake of fire all who are not written in the book of life (vs. 15). And verse ten tells us that this place has brimstone and fire in it (hence the term "Lake of Fire"). Those who are placed in here will be tormented (see above for Greek) day and night.....forever and ever. So not only is the beast, false prophets put here but so is everyone that chose to worship the enemy rather then God. Do not forget God desires all to be saved (1 Tim. 2:4)! Sadly, this will not happen.
10) Furnace of fire, weeping and gnashing of teeth, (Matt. 13:40-42). At the end of days Christ will send His angels to gather the those who have chosen to worship the enemy, and have become a stumbling block to the saved because of their choice. These that are gathered will be thrown into the furnace "kaminos", which means exactly that....furnace (enclosed area that can be heated into very high temperatures). This is another illustration of hell....another way to visually paint it so we can better understand that its the last place we want to be or anyone else.....especially the people we love. Because this torment will be so profound they will weep "klauthmos" - lamentation (passionate expression of grief), wailing (prolonged high pitch cry of pain, or grief). If this were not bad enough they will gnash ("Brugmos" - grating of the teeth, which is an expression of intolerable pain or grief) of teeth. Christ will punish those that have punished His children (believers), because they loved the enemy more then Him.
I have run out of time. I long to say that I enjoyed this, but I did not. I was tormented as I wrote this.....thinking about all the lost.....loved ones and the unknown to me. Also I thought about the fact this may upset some brothers and sisters. I promise....that was never my intention. But let us not forget our God is a BIG GOD and He does BIG things....like saving the lost. After all....He saved us....did He not? Praise be to Christ Jesus our Lord! Let me pray for you all!
Lord Jesus! Once again we fall before you and cry Abba! Forgive us of our sins as we have forgiven those who have sinned against us. Lord bring peace where there is no peace. Bring unity where there has been no show of unity. Lord where there has been no edification....let there be edification. Lord where there has been pride of life let there be a humble heart, which is usable in your hands for ministry. Lord put it in our hearts to teach the entire council of your Word and not just parts that make hard issues more palatable for us. Lord forgive us for showing intolerance to your Word, which has so many different translations now, but each of them......are in fact......your Word! Father, these different translations have saved thousands and thousands of people! Why? Because Lord, we know its your Word....and your Word, which is Jesus Christ.....saves lives. Thank you Lord for these two family members who love you so much. Thank you that you died for both of them so they may have life more abundantly in Christ Jesus our common Lord! Bless them and keep them close to your side. Bless all who come to this forum. From this day forth Lord Jesus I pray that this forum will serve you by bringing peace, unity, love, compassion, grace, mercy, growth, blessings, and edification into the lives of the viewers. May every word bring glory to your name that is typed in these postings, because we know we will be judged for every word that leaves our mouths according to Matthew 12:36. As I close Lord....I beg you....plead with you....to save those we know that are dear to us! In the name of Jesus I pray Lord. Amen!
Grace and peace to all!
PS. I sat for days as I read over all the postings, and I read Gods Word. I wanted to learn and give time for things to set in. I hope those who read this post will do the same! Sanctification!
jay.me - 1/15/10 @ 12:51 PM
hello Christopher,
"...like slander, disunity, accusing, anger, pride, etc. Question? Has this been seen in the posting of this section of the forum? Be honest!"
Perhaps, but I havent. I hope no one thinks I have been any of that, if so sorry! They didnt get the right tone in my post. I love God and want to sanctify his name, and love my neighbors, that includes Johnathan and Alpha! The only anger I have is against false teachings that dishonor God.
I attended a Baptist church for years. I sat through many sermons by our sincere pastor about God burning people in hellfire. I remember thinking even at a young age why? It didnt make me love God more, just dread him.
Then thankfully I began an earnest prayerful study of the Bible and learned the truth about God. And the truth will surely set you free! I became closer to God than I had ever been before.
I am balanced and honest in my view of God. I realise God is love AND he has PERFECT justice. He will reward those who are faithful to him with eternal life, and after many chances and warnings he will certainly take action to cleanse the earth by destroying the ungodly. But those who are destroyed in Gehenna will not be tortured forever by God. They will just be dead. Like the Bible tells us.(Gehenna and Tartaroo are different words by the way)
Why would God want to TORTURE anyone? God doesnt even WANT anyone to die.
2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to PERISH but for all to come to repentance."
God says he doesnt even want anyone to PERISH but he does want them to BURN forever?
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Read 2 Peter 3:5-6 "For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, 6 through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water."
Was the EARTH literally destroyed? NO. The wicked people on it were. Notice it says destroyed....not tortured.
"7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men."
It says the heavens and the earth are reserved for fire...will they literally burn? Or is it the destruction of ungodly men? The Bible uses fire to show its refining properties...not as a device for torturing.
Hellfire doctrine says God is unjust and wants to inflict torture....Forever!
A blood-thirsty torturous god? Sounds very pagan to me...
Read about king Ahaz (2Chronicals)
"Ahaz was twenty years old when he began to reign, and he reigned sixteen years in Jerusalem: but he did not that which was right in the sight of the LORD, like David his father: 2 For he walked in the ways of the kings of Israel, and made also molten images for Baalim. 3 Moreover he burnt incense in the valley of the son of Hinnom, and burnt his children in the fire, after the abominations of the heathen whom the LORD had cast out before the children of Israel."
He was a bad king, he did NOT do right in the sight of God.
Look at one of the things he did, God called an ABOMINATION...he burnt his children in the fire!
Will God do WORSE than what he HIMSELF called an abomination?
Think about that.
Jeremiah 7: 31"And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them NOT, neither came it into my heart."
So you may want to believe that Gehenna is a symbol of burning people...but..God said THAT never came into HIS heart.
In Gods word fire is used as a symbol for eternal destruction. A means of refining the earth, by destroying ungodly men.
God is going to cleanse the earth, and those who are ungodly will "PERISH" they will be "DESTROYED" they will "DIE" just like the Bible teaches us.
Listen to God, seek wisdom...
Proverbs 2 "4 If you seek her as silver
And search for her as for hidden treasures;
5 Then you will discern the fear of the LORD
And discover the knowledge of God."
Have a true fear of God: respect, reverence, a fear of displeasing him out of love...not out of morbid dread fear of torture!
Jonathan - 1/15/10 @ 1:23 PM
Jay I also would like to apologize If I cam off wrong. God does NOT wantanyone to perish, however He knows they will at some point in life. We are all going to die. And those who do not accept Jesus Christ will die and go to hell. ot just the grave, but a furnace of fire. God does NOT want this, but this is how he set it up. He would love for everyone to accept Him. We all know this isnt going to happen though. And they have to pay a debt for their sins. And they will pay for their sis in hell.