What is hell? What do you think? What does Gods word say.....
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112 replies on this topic
jay.me - 1/11/10 @ 8:44 PM
Part 1
"Most of what we believe about hell comes from Catholicism and ignorance of the Old Testament, not from the Bible. This study will cause you to re-examine current teaching on hell and urge you to further study on what happens to the wicked after death.
"Dont you know that hell is just something the Catholic Church invented to scare people into obedience?"
Hell vs. Sheol and Hades
We first begin by eliminating the problem the King James Version of the Bible introduced to this study by indiscriminately translating three different words in the Bible as hell: sheol, hades, and Gehenna.
Sheol Used of Unseen
In the Old Testament, the word for which hell is given in the King James Version is sheol, a word whose root meaning is “unseen.” The King James Version translates sheol as “hell” 31 times, “the grave” 31 times (since someone in the grave is unseen), and “the pit” three times.
Yet in the Old Testament sheol was not exclusively a place of punishment, for faithful Jacob was there (Gen. 37.35, 42.38, 44.29, 31). Righteous Job also longed for it in Job 14.13. David spoke of going to sheol in Ps. 49.15 and Jesus went there, Ps. 16.10 and Acts 2.24-31. In all these cases, these men were “unseen” because they were dead. "
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/jesusteachingonhell.html
jay.me - 1/11/10 @ 8:47 PM
Part 2 The Twelve Gehenna Passages in Chronological Order
Matthew 5:21-22:
In Mt. 5.21-22, Jesus used Gehenna for the first time in inspired speech:
Ye have heard that it was said to them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: but I say unto you, that every one who is angry with his brother shall be in danger of the judgment, and whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of the hell of fire (Gehenna--SGD).
As we mentioned earlier in this study, Jesus actually used the Greek word Gehenna for the first time in inspired writing. The word had never occurred in the Greek Old Testament, the Septuagint. When we read the word hell, all kinds of sermon outlines, illustrations, and ideas come to the fore of our minds. None of these came to the minds of Jesus listeners, for they had never heard the word before in inspired speech. It is very significant that the word did not occur even once in the Septuagint, quoted by Jesus and his apostles.
I suggest that to the Jews in Jesus audience, Jesus words referred merely to the valley southeast of Jerusalem. In their Old Testament background, Gehenna meant a place of burning, a valley where rebellious Jews had been slaughtered before and would be again if they didnt repent, as Malachi, John the Baptist, and Jesus urged them to do. Jesus didnt have to say what Gehenna was, as it was a well-known place to the people of that area, but his teaching was at least consistent with the national judgment announced by Malachi and John the Baptist. The closest fire in the context is Mt. 3.10-12, where John announced imminent fiery judgment on the nation of Israel.
Lets notice the other Gehenna passages to ascertain more about Jesus use of Gehenna. As we do so, lets analyze each passage thus: Does the passage teach things we dont believe about an unending fiery hell, but which fit national judgment in Gehenna?
Matthew 5:29-30
The next passage is Mt. 5.29-30, where Jesus used Gehenna twice when he said:
And if thy right eye causeth thee to stumble, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not thy whole body go into hell (Gehenna--SGD). And if thy right hand causeth thee to stumble, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not thy whole body go into hell (Gehenna--SGD).
In our traditional idea of hell, unending fire after the end of time, we normally dont think of people having their physical limbs at that time. This is not an argument, but just the realization that we dont think in terms of some people being in heaven with missing eyes and limbs, and some in hell with all of theirs. However, these words do fit a national judgment. It would be better to go into the kingdom of the Messiah missing some members, than to go into an imminent national judgment of unquenchable fire with all our members. This was equivalent to Johns demand that his Jewish audience bring forth fruits worthy of repentance or receive imminent unquenchable fire. The whole body of a Jew could be cast into the valley of Gehenna in the fiery judgment of which John spoke.
Matthew 10:28
The fourth time Jesus used Gehenna was when he said:
And be not afraid of them that kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell (Gehenna--SGD).
Again, Jesus spoke of Gehenna consistently with imminent national judgment on Israel. The whole body of a Jew would be cast into the imminent fiery national judgment of which John spoke.
Lk. 12.4-5
This is the fifth time Jesus used Gehenna, when he said:
And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will warn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, who after he hath killed, hath power to cast into hell (Gehenna-SGD): yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
Here Jesus taught the same thing John taught in Mt. 3.10-12, that only a divine being has the power to cast someone into unquenchable fire. A human can kill you. A divine being can imminently bring an unstoppable national judgment in which a divinely ordained religion would be brought to an end. Notice also that Jesus said that one would be cast into Gehenna after he has been killed (Lk. 12.4-5) and that God can destroy both the soul and body in Gehenna.
Notice also in verse 49 that Jesus said:
I came to cast fire upon the earth; and what do I desire, if it is already kindled?
The fiery judgment of which Jesus spoke was not far off in time and place, but imminent and earthly. In verse 56, Jesus noted that the judgment of which he spoke was imminent, for he said:
Ye hypocrites, ye know how to interpret the face of the earth and the heaven; but how is it that ye know not how to interpret this time?
The word for earth in both these verses is gen, the standard word for land or ground, not necessarily the planet, which we might think. Thayer defined the word as:
1. arable land, 2. the ground, the earth as a standing place, 3. land, as opposed to sea or water, 4. the earth as a whole, the world. (p. 114)
This is the word used in Mt. 2.6 (the land of Judea), Mt. 2.20 (the land of Israel), Mt. 10.15 (the land of Sodom and Gomorrah), Mt. 11.24 (the land of Sodom), Mt. 14.34 (the land of Gennesaret), Jn. 3.22 (the land of Judea), Ac. 7.3 (into the land which I shall show thee), Ac. 7.6 (seed should sojourn in a strange land), Ac. 7.11 (a dearth over all the land of Egypt), etc. Thus, Jesus again spoke of imminent fiery destruction on the land of Israel, just as Malachi and John the Baptist said he would announce.
Mt. 18.9, Mk. 9.43-45
These verses contain the sixth, seventh, eight, and ninth times Jesus used the word Gehenna. These are verses like Mt. 5.29-30, which speak of it being better to enter life or the kingdom without some members of ones body rather than going into Gehenna with a whole body. However, we want to pay special attention to Marks account, because in it, Jesus further described Gehenna:
And if thy hand cause thee to stumble, cut it off: it is good for thee to enter into life maimed, rather than having thy two hands to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire [emphasis mine-SGD].
Notice that Jesus specifically said whats coming in Gehenna-unquenchable fire. John the Baptist said he would baptize with unquenchable fire, not necessarily fire that would burn unendingly, but which would not be quenched. Unquenchable fire is unstoppable! Its fiery destruction brought about by a divine being. In Ezk. 20.47-48, God promised such a national judgment on Judah:
Hear the word of the Lord: Thus says the Lord God, Behold, I am about to kindle a fire in you, and it shall consume every green tree in you, as well as every dry tree; the blazing flame will not be quenched, and the whole surface from south to north will be burned by it. And all flesh will see that I, the Lord, have kindled it; it shall not be quenched.
Of course, Babylon fulfilled these words in the destruction of Jerusalem in 586 B.C. when the Jews were carried off into captivity. The fire was not quenched, but Jerusalem didnt burn unendingly from 586 B.C. on.
Likewise, in Amos 5.6, God had promised a similar judgment on the northern kingdom at the hands of the Assyrians, fulfilled in 722 B.C. when they were carried into captivity:
Seek the Lord that you may live, lest He break forth like a fire, O house of Joseph, and it consume with none to quench it for Bethel.
The unquenchable fire which consumed Israel was unstoppable, but no one believes its still burning unendingly. Thus, when Jesus spoke of unquenchable fire in Mk. 9.43, he used language that his Jewish listeners would associate with the national judgments God had brought on nations in the Old Testament. In fact, they had never heard such language used any other way! Of course, we have, but not from the teaching of the Bible.
Matthew 23:15
In the tenth time Jesus used Gehenna, he said:
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he is become so, ye make him twofold more a son of hell (Gehenna-SGD) than yourselves.
These Jews knew what Gehenna was, and Jesus and John had foretold the unquenchable fiery judgment awaiting them there. He told these Jews that they were headed for it, and the people they taught were as well. It is the same national judgment hes been speaking of thus far.
Matthew 23:33
Eighteen verses later, Jesus used Gehenna for the eleventh time. Continuing in the same address, he said:
Ye serpents, ye offspring of vipers, how shall ye escape the judgment of hell (Gehenna-SGD)?
Just three verses later, Jesus said, in Mt. 23.36:
Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
About these same things, Jesus said in Mt. 24.34:
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished.
Thus, Jesus gave the time element when this fiery destruction on the land would be carried out: in that generation, i.e., in the time of his dealing with the then present generation of Jews. To sum up, Jesus threatened the Jews in the environs of Jerusalem that they were headed for the valley named Gehenna where there would be unquenchable fire (Mk. 9.43) upon his generation (Mt. 23.36) in his generation (Mt. 24.34), when God destroys the souls of those of Jesus generation after killing their bodies (Lk. 12.5, Mt. 10.28). We cannot make it more precise! Gehenna is where Jesus said Jerusalem would end up after its unstoppable fiery destruction in 70 A.D.
Jas. 3.6
There remains but one more occurrence of Gehenna in the Bible. Its the only time the word occurs outside the gospels, where James, writing to Jews shortly before the destruction of Jerusalem, said:
And the tongue is a fire: the world of iniquity among our members is the tongue, which defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the wheel of nature, and is set on fire by hell (Gehenna--SGD).
While this is the only passage speaking of Gehenna outside the gospels, it is consistent with how Jesus defined it. James condemned misuse of the tongue, specifically in terms Jesus used the first time he used the word in Mt. 5.22, where he spoke of cursing ones brethren putting one in danger of the hell of fire (Gehenna--SGD). In Jas. 3.9, James said:
Therewith bless we the Lord and Father; and therewith curse we men, who are made after the likeness of God: out of the same mouth cometh forth blessing and cursing.
Thus, the last time Gehenna occurred in the Bible, it taught the same thing it taught in the first. The Jew of Jesus day who abused his brother with his tongue was in danger of imminent, fiery, national destruction. He was headed for unquenchable fire on his generation, in his generation.
We see the same imminence of this judgment against Jesus generation of Jews later in James. For example, in Jas. 5.5, James mentioned a day of slaughter coming. In Jas. 5.7, he mentioned the coming of the Lord. In Jas. 5.8, he said the coming of the Lord was “at hand.” In Jas. 5.9, he said “the judge standeth before the door.”
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/jesusteachingonhell.html
jay.me - 1/11/10 @ 11:01 AM
Ok Jonathan,
I have no animosity toward you. I hate what is bad. The doctrine of hellfire is very BAD.
I hope you will see that God is not a monster!
I am aware that not everyone will listen to Gods word, not everyone would even listen to Jesus himself...
John 8:43-45
jay.me - 1/11/10 @ 8:31 PM
Hebrews 12:29 "for our God is a consuming fire."
Is that symbolic? Or is God an actual fire?
jay.me - 1/11/10 @ 8:49 PM
Part 3 Summary of the Twelve Gehenna Passages
From these twelve Gehenna passages, we learn that Gehenna would be the familiar valley on the southwest side of Jerusalem where an imminent fiery judgment was coming on the Jews of the generation in which Jesus was crucified. It was unquenchable fire on that generation in that generation. It was a national judgment against the Jews. Gehenna was to the Jews of Jesus day what it was to the Jews of Jeremiahs day-where the term originated-the city dump! But it entailed all the horror of being rejected and abandoned by God to the merciless enemy who surrounded the gates and who would cause their dead carcasses to be thrown into the burning, worm-infested place. Thus, when Jesus used the term He used it in the same sense that Jeremiah did: as Jerusalem then was abandoned to Babylons invasion, so Jerusalem of Jesus day was about to be abandoned to Roman invasion-unless they repented. None of these hell passages say that anyone of our day can go to hell. None of them associate hell with Satan. None of them say that Satans domain is hell. Though they speak of men being killed and destroyed in Gehenna, none of them speak of men being tormented there. Contrast Jesus use of hell with traditional preaching on the subject. For example, we quote a Rev. J. Furniss, who said:
See on the middle of that red-hot floor stands a girl: she looks about sixteen years old. Her feet are bare. Listen; she speaks. “I have been standing on this red-hot floor for years! Look at my burnt and bleeding feet! Let me go off this burning floor for one moment!” The fifth dungeon is the red-hot oven. The little child is in the red-hot oven. Hear how it screams to come out; see how it turns and twists itself about in the fire. It beats its head against the roof of the oven. It stamps its little feet on the floor. God was very good to this little child. Very likely God saw it would get worse and worse, and would never repent, and so it would have to be punished more severely in hell. So God in His mercy called it out of the world in early childhood. (J. Furniss, The Sight of Hell [London and Dublin: Duffy], cited by Edward William Fudge, The Fire That Consumes [Houston: Providential Press, 1982], p. 416.)
Charles H. Spurgeon, renowned Baptist preacher, said:
When thou diest thy soul will be tormented alone-that will be a hell for it-but at the day of judgment thy body will join thy soul, and then thou wilt have twin hells, body and soul shall be together, each brimfull of pain, thy soul sweating in its inmost pore drops of blood and thy body from head to foot suffused with agony; conscience, judgement, memory, all tortured….Thine heart beating high with fever, thy pulse rattling at an enormous rate in agony, thy limbs cracking like the martyrs in the fire and yet unburnt, thyself put in a vessel of hot oil, pained yet coming out undestroyed, all thy veins becoming a road for the hot feet of pain to travel on, every nerve a string on which the devil shall ever play his diabolical tune….Fictions, sir! Again I say they are no fictions, but solid, stern truth. If God be true, and this Bible be true, what I have said is the truth, and you will find it one day to be so. (Charles H. Spurgeon, Sermon No. 66, New Park Street Pulpit, 2:105, cited by Edward William Fudge, The Fire That Consumes [Houston: Providential Press, 1982], p. 417.)
Only conceive that poor wretch in the flames, who is saying,
“O for one drop of water to cool my parched tongue!” See how his tongue hangs from between his blistered lips! How it excoriates and burns the roof of his mouth as if it were a firebrand! Behold him crying for a drop of water. I will not picture the scene. Suffice it for me to close up by saying, that the hell of hells will be to thee, poor sinner, the thought that it is to be for ever. Thou wilt look up there on the throne of God-and on it shall be written, “for ever!” When the damned jingle the burning irons of their torments, they shall say, “For ever!” When they howl, echo cries, “For ever!” “For ever” is written on their racks, “For ever” on their chains; “For ever” burneth in the fire, “For ever” ever reigns.” (From a sermon preached in 1855, cited by Edward William Fudge, The Fire That Consumes [Houston: Providential Press, 1982], p. 417.)
Jonathan Edwards, famous Calvinist preacher of an earlier century, said:
So it will be with the soul in Hell; it will have no strength or power to deliver itself; and its torment and horror will be so great, so mighty, so vastly disproportioned to its strength, that having no strength in the least to support itself, although it be infinitely contrary to the nature and inclination of the soul utterly to sink; yet it will sink, it will utterly and totally sink, without the least degree of remaining comfort, or strength, or courage, or hope. And though it will never be annihilated, its being and perception will never be abolished: yet such will be the infinite depth of gloominess that it will sink into, that it will be in a state of death, eternal death….
To help your conception, imagine yourself to be cast into a fiery oven, all of a glowing heat, or into the midst of a glowing brick-kiln, or of a great furnace, where your pain would be as much greater than that occasioned by accidentally touching a coal of fire, as the heat is greater. Imagine also that you body were to lie there for a quarter of an hour, full of fire, as full within and without as a bright coal of fire, all the while full of quick sense; what horror would you feel at the entrance of such a furnace! And how long would that quarter of an hour seem to you!…And how much greater would be the effect, if you knew you must endure it for a whole year, and how vastly greater still, if you knew you must endure it for a thousand years! O then, how would your heart sink, if you thought, if you knew, that you must bear it forever and ever!…That after millions of millions of ages, your torment would be no nearer to an end, than ever it was; and that you never, never should be delivered! But your torment in Hell will be immeasurably greater than this illustration represents. How then will the heart of a poor creature sink under it! How utterly inexpressible and inconceivable must the sinking of the soul be in such a case. (Jonathan Edwards, cited by A. W. Pink, Eternal Punishment [Swengel, PA: Reiner Publications, n.d.], cited by Edward William Fudge, The Fire That Consumes [Houston: Providential Press, 1982], p. 417.)
Did all that preaching come from the twelve Gehenna passages weve just analyzed? Did any of it? We can find none of this language of red-hot floors, dungeons, red-hot ovens, vessels of hot oil, being able to see the throne of God, brick-kilns, torture racks, chains, or great furnaces anywhere in these twelve passages that deal with the subject of Gehenna in the Bible. However, they are easily found in Miltons Paradise Lost and Dantes Inferno.
The reader may wonder, “Well, if Jesus didnt teach that the wicked presently living will finally go to hell, then what did he teach about the final destiny of the wicked?” First, we dont have to know the answer to that question to know that traditional teaching on hell is Biblically bankrupt. Second, Jesus didnt teach anything about the final destiny of the wicked, that is, at the end of time. If were tempted to use the account of the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16), lets recall that in this account, Lazarus, the rich man, and Abraham were all in hades (they couldnt be seen), and the passage doesnt address what happens after the end of time at all. Whatever the passage teaches, it doesnt deal with the final destiny of the wicked.
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/jesusteachingonhell.html
jay.me - 1/11/10 @ 8:51 PM
Part 4 Weeping and Gnashing of Teeth
These words are so often thought of as applying to people suffering unending conscious torment in hell, that it will surprise many to find that the Old Testament used this language exclusively of national judgments.
In Isa. 22.12, speaking of the time Jerusalem would be destroyed by Babylon, Isaiah said:
Therefore in that day the Lord God of hosts, called you to weeping, to wailing, to shaving the head, and to wearing sackcloth.
See also Isa. 16.9, Jer. 9.1, and 48.32. The entire book of Lamentations contains such language as Jeremiah lamented the destruction of Jerusalem by Babylon. In the New Testament, Jas. 5.1 uses the same kind of language to describe the weeping of the rich for fear of Gods imminent judgment on Jerusalem:
Come now, ye rich, weep and howl for your miseries that are coming upon you. Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are moth-eaten.
This judgment was also imminent in Jas. 5.5-9, where the day of slaughter was spoken of as at hand, as the judge was standing before the door. John used this same language in Rev. 18.9, of the pagan kings lamenting the destruction of spiritual Babylon:
And the kings of the earth, who committed fornication and lived wantonly with her, shall weep and wail over her, when they look upon the smoke of her burning, standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Woe, woe, the great city, Babylon, the strong city! for in one hour is thy judgment. And the merchants of the earth weep and mourn over her...
On the gnashing of teeth in particular, an adversary about to kill his victim did this in Job 16.9, Ps. 35.16, Ps. 37.12, Lam. 2.16, and Acts 7.54. Ths Psalmist used it of gnashing of teeth by the victim in Ps. 112.10, where the psalmist said:
The wicked man will see and be vexed, he will gnash his teeth and waste away: the longing of the wicked will come to nothing.
Thus, when Jesus and John the Baptist issued their warnings of the impending destruction of Jerusalem, they used language that the Old Testament had only used of national destruction.
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/jesusteachingonhell.html
jay.me - 1/11/10 @ 8:52 PM
Part 5 Fire and Brimstone
In Isa. 34.9, Isaiah used this language of national judgment on Edom:
And its streams shall be turned into pitch, and its loose earth into brimstone, and its land shall become burning pitch.
In Isa. 30.33, Isaiah used it of such a judgment on Assyria:
For Topheth [the place of human sacrifice to Molech, an Assyrian god--SGD] has long been ready, indeed, it has been prepared for the king. He has made it deep and large, a pyre of fire with plenty of wood; the breath of the Lord, like a torrent of brimstone, sets it afire.
Psalm 11.6 spoke of fire and brimstone on the wicked, Ezk. 38.22 used this language to speak of national judgment on Gog, a pagan nation opposed to Gods people in the restoration after Babylonian captivity. In Rev. 14.9-11, John used fire and brimstone of national judgment on the empire attempting to eradicate the Messiahs people. Scripture uses this language only of national judgment.
Rising Smoke
Isaiah used this language of national judgment against Edom in Isa. 34.10:
It shall not be quenched night or day; Its smoke shall go up forever; From generation to generation it shall be desolate; None shall pass through it forever and ever.
No Rest Day or Night
Isaiah used this language of national judgment on Edom in Isa. 34.10, quoted above.
Cast Into Fire
In Ezk. 5.4-5, this language described Israel being cast into the fire, in her destruction by Babylon:
And take again some of them and throw them into the fire, and burn them in the fire, from it a fire will spread to all the house of Israel...Thus says the Lord God, This is Jerusalem; I have set her at the center of the nations, with lands around her.
Thus, this expression is used consistently of national destruction.
Unfruitful Branches to Be Burned Up
In Ezek. 19.10-14, Ezekiel used this language of the national destruction of Israel:
Your mother was like a vine in your vineyard, Planted by the waters; It was fruitful and full of branches Because of abundant waters. And it had strong branches fit for scepters of rulers, And its height was raised above the clouds So that it was seen in its height with the mass of its branches. But it was plucked up in fury; It was cast down to the ground; And the east wind dried up its fruit. Its strong branch was torn off So that it withered; The fire consumed it. And now it is planted in the wilderness, In a dry and thirsty land. And fire has gone out from its branch; It has consumed its shoots and fruit, So that there is not in it a strong branch, A scepter to rule. This is a lamentation, and has become a lamentation.
Melt
In Mic. 1.2-7, God said he would melt Israel and Judah. In Ps. 75.3, the Psalmist used this language of the destruction of Gods enemies in the Old Testament. Peter may well have used this language of the destruction of Jerusalem in II Pet. 3.10-12. (See Appendix 1, “II Peter 3: Destruction of Universe or Jerusalem?” for a full discussion of this chapter.) Like all the other expressions, melt portrays national destruction.
This section shows that none of the language we usually associate with hell is so associated in the Bible, and most of that language was used of strictly national judgments.
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/jesusteachingonhell.html
jay.me - 1/11/10 @ 8:54 PM
Part 6 Other Terminology Commonly Thought to Refer to Eternal Fiery Hell
Now we want to notice other expressions of fiery judgment which we traditionally use to describe hell. These include fire burning to sheol, the worm dying not, unquenchable fire, fire that is not quenched, everlasting fire, weeping and gnashing of teeth, gnashing of teeth, fire and brimstone, rising smoke, no rest day or night, being cast into fire, and melting.
Fire Consuming a Nation
In Isa. 33.10-1, Isaiah said about Assyria:
Now I will arise, says the Lord, now I will be exalted, now I will be lifted up. You have conceived chaff, you will give birth to stubble; my breath will consume you like a fire, and the peoples will be burned to lime, like cut thorns which are burned in the fire....Who among us can live with the consuming fire? Who among us can live with continual burning?
A careful study of the Old Testament prophets shows these expressions of the Assyrians being consumed by fire, and burned to lime are expressions of national judgment upon that nation. These expressions are similar to Jesus statement in Lk. 12.49 that he came to send fire on the land of Israel. This is also the Old Testament basis for Jesus statement to the Jews in Jn. 15.6:
If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
Isaiahs language was also similar to that in Dan. 7.9-12, where Daniel foretold the judgment of the beast about to overcome the saints of the Most High:
I kept looking until thrones were set up, and the Ancient of Days took His seat; His vesture was like white snow and the hair of His head like pure wool. His throne was ablaze with flames, Its wheels were a burning fire. A river of fire was flowing and coming out from before Him; Thousands upon thousands were attending Him, and myriads upon myriads were standing before Him; The court sat, and the books were opened. Then I kept looking because of the sound of the boasting words which the horn was speaking: I kept looking until the beast was slain, and its body was destroyed and given to the burning fire.
This scene portrayed the national destruction of the pagan power attempting to destroy the saints of the Most High. This is the same scene described in Rev. 20.11-15:
And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat upon it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne; and books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged out of the things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead that were in it; and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. And if any was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.
Both of these scenes depict national judgments against a nation persecuting Gods saints, both have judgment scenes, both have people judged out of things written in the books, and both have those not pleasing God in the judgment being cast into a river or lake of fire. This national judgment goes with Johns expressions of imminence in Rev. 1.3 (“the time is at hand”), Rev. 22.6 (“things which must shortly come to pass”), and Rev. 22.10 (“Seal not up the words of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand”). Those who take the early date of Revelation (A.D. 67) believe these words refer to the destruction of Jerusalem, while those who take the later date for Revelation (A.D. 90-96) believe these words refer to the destruction of the Roman Empire. Whether they refer to Jerusalem or the Roman empire, they refer to a national judgment.
Fire Burning to Sheol, Consuming the Earth and Mountains
This language is generally associated with a fiery judgment at the end of time, and hell. However, in Dt. 32.22, Moses said the same about the punishment God would bring on Israel for her idolatry:
For a fire is kindled in My anger, and burns to the lowest part of Sheol, and consumes the earth with its yield, and sets on fire the foundations of the mountains.
This language described national judgment that caused a nation to vanish.
Worm Dieth Not, Fire Not Quenched
While this language is generally applied to hell, its not so used in any of the Gehenna passages in the Bible. In Isa. 66.24, we read of Gods destruction of Jerusalem in the generation when Jesus was crucified:
Then they shall go forth and look on the corpses of the men who have transgressed against Me. For their worm shall not die, and their fire shall not be quenched; and they shall be an abhorrence to all mankind.
This passage contains nothing about conscious suffering, much less enduring to the end of time. Yet this is the same kind of language we saw in Mk. 9.47-48, the passage where Jesus described Gehenna with “unquenchable fire.” There Jesus said:
It is good for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell; where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
When Jesus spoke these words, the Bible had never used such language of anything but a national judgment.
Unquenchable Fire
Likewise, when John the Baptist and Jesus spoke of unquenchable fire, the Jews had never heard such language used of anything but a national judgment. For example, in Ezk. 20.47-48, God promised national judgment on Israel:
Hear the word of the Lord: Thus says the Lord God, Behold, I am about to kindle a fire in you, and it shall consume every green tree in you, as well as every dry tree; the blazing flame will not be quenched, and the whole surface from south to north will be burned by it. And all flesh will see that I, the Lord, have kindled it; it shall not be quenched.
In Amos 5.5-6, we have the same language used of national judgment on Israel again. God had promised a similar judgment on the northern kingdom at the hands of the Assyrians, fulfilled in 722 B.C.:
Seek the Lord that you may live, lest He break forth like a fire, O house of Joseph, and it consume with none to quench it for Bethel.
In Isa. 66.15-16, 24, Isaiah spoke of New Jerusalems enemies being burned with unquenchable fire, as he spoke of the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in A.D. 70:
For behold, the Lord will come in fire, and His chariots like the whirlwind, to render His anger with fury, and His rebuke with flames of fire. For the Lord will execute judgment by fire, and by His sword on all flesh. And those slain by the Lord will be many....Then they shall go forth and look on the corpses of the men who have transgressed against Me. For their worm shall not die, and their fire shall not be quenched; and they shall be an abhorrence to all mankind.
In Jer. 21.10-12, we read of Babylons burning Jerusalem with unquenchable fire, a national judgment fulfilled in 586 B.C.:
For I have set My face against this city for harm and not for good, declares the Lord. It will be given into the hand of the king of Babylon, and he will burn it with fire. Then say to the household of the king of Judah, Hear the word of the Lord, O house of David, thus says the Lord: Administer justice every morning; and deliver the person who has been robbed from the power of the oppressor. That My wrath may not go forth like fire and burn with none to extinguish it, because of the evil of their deeds.
Again, at the time John the Baptist and Jesus used this language in the gospels, the Bible had only used it of national judgments.
Fire That Is Not Quenched
The same thing is true of this expression. In Jer. 4.4, Jeremiah used it of the destruction of Jerusalem. In Jer. 21.12, he used it to describe the destruction of the house of David. In Amos 5.5, 6, Amos used it of the destruction of Jerusalem. In II K. 22.17, its used of the destruction of Judah. In Isa. 34.10, Isaiah used it of the destruction of Edom, and in Isa. 66.24, he used it of the destruction of the enemies of the Messiahs people. See also Jer. 7.20, 17.27, where Jeremiah used it of the destruction of Judah, and Ezk. 20.47-48, where Ezekiel spoke of Gods destruction of Jerusalem.
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/jesusteachingonhell.html
Jonathan - 1/11/10 @ 9:55 PM
whao whoa whoa...KJV is the most accurate Translation !!! Don;t attack Gods Holy Word...thats your problem...you have thrown out the Word of God and replaced it with a perversion. Now I see why you dont believe in Hell...Gotchya
Alpha - 1/11/10 @ 10:17 PM
KJV is most certainly NOT the most accurate. The NASB is one of the most accurate translations.
Ive actually heard from several sources that the New World Translation(you would know this as the "Jehovah Witness Bible") is the most accurate to the original Greek. Though Ive never verified it personally, so dont quote me on that. :)
And with so much discrepancy between translations, I dont see how you can possibly think the book is "Holy". lol
Jonathan - 1/11/10 @ 10:22 PM
Not so fast Alpha..That is a lie and I will prove it !
Jonathan - 1/11/10 @ 10:23 PM
Introduction
As Bible-believing Christians, we believe that the words of the King James Authorized Version are the pure and preserved words of God for the English speaking people. This booklet has been written to help fellow Bible-believers defend themselves against the fiery darts of the wicked Laodiceans and Alexandrians who do not believe that any human being should have a printed final authority to guide him through this wicked world of darkness and deceit.
I realize it is unusual to see such a brief booklet addressing so many subjects, but it is my personal belief that this is what many people need in these last days. The Bible Believers Helpful Little Handbook has been well accepted by Christians because of its variety, its brevity, and its scriptural content. Ive tried to stick to that same basic principle in this booklet. Since this is mainly a reference guide, it isnt necessary for you to read the entire booklet in order to appreciate many of the truths it contains. Each small section contains valuable truths that the active Bible-believer will find helpful time after time. However, if youll take the time to read the entire booklet, you will learn many things that will increase your faith in Gods preserved word. You will also become more equipped to do battle with the Alexandrian apostates who work endlessly in their efforts to replace your two-edged sword with a toothpick. These people take great delight in ridiculing and intimidating people like you and I, and far too often they win because we do not know the answers. With a good knowledge of the information in the forthcoming pages, you CAN know the answers and you can win a few battles of your own.
I urge you to become familiar with this little booklet. Mark or highlight the special places that will be most useful to you. Keep a copy close by and when the moment is right, USE IT!
The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever. (Psa. 12:6-7)
Jonathan - 1/11/10 @ 10:23 PM
Reasons for Accepting the KJV as Gods Preserved Word
1. God promised to preserve His words (Psa. 12:6-7; Mat. 24:35). There has to be a preserved copy of Gods pure words somewhere. If it isnt the KJV, then what is it?
2. It has no copyright. The text of the KJV may be reproduced by anyone for there is no copyright forbidding its duplication. This is not true with the modern perversions.
3. The KJV produces good fruit (Mat. 7:17-20). No modern translation can compare to the KJV when it comes to producing good fruit. For nearly four hundred years, God has used the preaching and teaching of the KJV to bring hundreds of millions to Christ. Laodicean Christians might favor the new versions, but the Holy Spirit doesnt.
4. The KJV was translated during the Philadelphia church period (Rev. 3:7-13). The modern versions begin to appear rather late on the scene as the lukewarm Laodicean period gets underway (Rev. 3:14-22), but the KJV was produced way back in 1611, just in time for the many great revivals (1700-1900). The Philadelphia church was the only church that did not receive a rebuke from the Lord Jesus Christ, and it was the only church that "kept" Gods word (Rev. 3:8).
5. The KJV translators were honest in their work. When the translators had to add certain words, largely due to idiom changes, they placed the added words in italics so wed know the difference. This is not the case with many new translations.
6. All new translations compare themselves to the KJV. Isnt it strange that the new versions never compare themselves to one another? For some strange reason they all line up against one Book--the A.V. 1611. I wonder why? Try Matthew 12:26.
7. The KJV translators believed they were handling the very words of God (I Ths. 2:13). Just read the King James Dedicatory and compare it to the prefaces in the modern versions. Immediately, you will see a world of difference in the approach and attitude of the translators. Which group would YOU pick for translating a book?
8. The KJV is supported by far more evidence. Of over 5,300 pieces of manuscript evidence, ninety-five percent supports the King James Bible! The changes in the new versions are based on the remaining five percent of manuscripts, most of which are from Alexandria, Egypt. (There are only two lines of Bibles: the Devils line from Alexandria, and the Lords line from Antioch. Well deal with this later.)
9. No one has ever proven that the KJV is not Gods word. The 1611 should be considered innocent until proven guilty with a significant amount of genuine manuscript evidence.
10. The KJV exalts the Lord Jesus Christ. The true scriptures should testify of Jesus Christ (John 5:39). There is no book on this planet which exalts Christ higher than the King James Bible. In numerous places the new perversions attack the Deity of Christ, the Blood Atonement, the Resurrection, salvation by grace through faith, and the Second Coming. The true scriptures will TESTIFY of Jesus Christ, not ATTACK Him!
Jonathan - 1/11/10 @ 10:24 PM
Seventy-five Common Sayings
The King James Bible is supposedly written in an "old and archaic language" that people today have trouble understanding, but please notice how so many of our modern sayings come from between its covers. Hundreds could be presented, but well limit ourselves to seventy-five:
1. Genesis 4:2-5: cant get blood from a turnip
2. Genesis 7: dont miss the boat
3. Genesis 11:7-9: babbling
4. Genesis 15:5: teller
5. Genesis 43:34: mess (of food)
6. Exodus 19:16-18: holy smoke
7. Exodus 28:42: britches
8. Exodus 32:8: holy cow
9. Leviticus 2:14: roast ears
10. Leviticus 13:10: the quick (raw flesh)
11. Leviticus 14:5-6: running water
12. Leviticus 16:8: scapegoat
13. Leviticus 25:10: Liberty Bell
14. Numbers 21:5: light bread
15. Numbers 35:2-5: suburb
16. Deuteronomy 2:14: wasted him
17. Deuteronomy 24:5: cheer up
18. Deuteronomy 32:10: apple of his eye
19. Judges 5:20: star wars
20. Judges 7:5-12: under dog
21. Judges 8:16: teach a lesson
22. Judges 17:10: calling a priest father
23. I Samuel 14:12: Ill show you a thing or two
24. I Samuel 20:40: artillery
25. I Samuel 25:37: petrified
26. II Samuel 19:18: ferry boat
27. I Kings 3:7: dont know if hes coming or going
28. I Kings 14:3: cracklins
29. I Kings 14:6: thats heavy
30. I Kings 21:19-23: shes gone to the dogs
31. II Chronicles 9:6: you havent heard half of it
32. II Chronicles 30:6: postman
33. Nehemiah 13:11: set them in their place
34. Esther 7:9: he hung himself
35. Job 11:16: Its water under the bridge
36. Job 20:6: he has his head in the clouds
37. Psalm 4:8: lay me down to sleep
38. Psalm 19:3-4: he gave me a line
39. Psalm 37:13: his day is coming
40. Psalm 58:8: pass away (dying)
41. Psalm 64:3-4: shoot off your mouth
42. Psalm 78:25: angels food cake
43. Psalm 141:10: give him enough rope and hell hang himself
44. Proverbs 7:22: dumb as an ox
45. Proverbs 13:24: spare the rod, spoil the child
46. Proverbs 18:6: he is asking for it
47. Proverbs 24:16: cant keep a good man down
48. Proverbs 25:14: full of hot air
49. Proverbs 30:30: king of beasts
50. Ecclesiastes 10:19: money talks
51. Ecclesiastes 10:20: a little bird told me
52. Song Solomon 2:5: lovesick
53. Isaiah 52:8: see eye to eye
54. Jeremiah 23:25: I have a dream (MLK, Jr)
55. Ezekiel 26:9: engines
56. Ezekiel 38:9: desert storm or storm troopers
57. Daniel 3:21: hose (leg wear)
58. Daniel 8:25: foreign policy
59. Daniel 11:38: the force be with you (star wars)
60. Hosea 7:8: half-baked
61. Jonah 4:10-11: cant tell left from right
62. Zephaniah 3:8-9: United Nations Assembly
63. Matthew 25:1-10: burning the midnight oil
64. Matthew 25:33: right or left side of an issue
65. Matthew 27:46: for crying out loud
66. Mark 5:13: hog wild
67. Luke 11:46: wont lift a finger to help
68. Luke 15:17: he came to himself
69. Romans 2:23: breaking the law
70. Philippians 3:2: beware of dog
71. Colossians 2:14: they nailed him
72. I John 5:11-13: get a life
73. Revelation 6:8: hell on earth
74. Revelation 16:13: a frog in my throat
75. Revelation 20:15: go jump in the lake
If youve checked these references, then you can easily see how our all-wise God has played a beautiful joke on the modern revisionists. People who do not even believe the KJV quote it every day! Furthermore, if youll grab yourself a NIV, a NCV, a TEV, or anything else, youll find that many of these modern sayings have been destroyed by the "better language" of the Laodiceans.
For example, I always thought that when I was a young boy my father and I crossed the Mississippi on a ferry boat (II Sam. 19:18), but I guess we must have crossed at the ford instead (NIV). Then there were times when I got out of line and dad would really set me in my place (Neh. 13:11). Too bad he didnt have a NIV, for he could have stationed me at my post. I guess there was nothing dad loved more than going out early on Saturday mornings and catching a mess of fish (Gen. 43:34). Its a good thing we didnt have a NKJV in those days, for he would have only caught a serving. We usually had hushpuppies with that fish dinner, but sometimes we just had light bread (Num. 21:5). That is, until the neighbors came over with their New American Bible. Then we had wretched food. Then dad would always say, "Cheer up, son, itll be better next time!" (Deu. 24:5) Too bad he didnt have a NKJV, for Im sure he would have said, "Come on, boy, bring happiness to yourself!"
So you get the point: the new versions dont stand a chance when competing with the KJV to use the most "modern" speech! Go ahead, have yourself some fun. Learn to appreciate Gods sense of humor! Grab a new translation and see first hand how the modern versions are still stuck in the Dark Ages when it comes to keeping up with modern speech.
Kasey - 1/11/10 @ 10:24 PM
Ive been reading this thread for a while, but never posted. Jonathan, you need to realize that Jay is using Gods word as his resource. He is NOT perverting it AT ALL! YOU are the one who is perverting it, or rather believing the perversion.
Jonathan - 1/11/10 @ 10:24 PM
The Italicized Words
If we are to believe what we hear from the critics, then we must accept the notion that the italicized words in the King James Bible do not belong. We are told that the words were added by the translators and are not the words of God. If this is true, then please explain why Luke, Paul, John, Peter, and even the Lord Jesus QUOTE them! The column on the right shows how New Testament writers and speakers QUOTE the King James italics of the Old Testament:
OLD TESTAMENT SCRIPTURE NEW TESTAMENT QUOTE
I have set the LORD always before me: because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved. (Psa. 16:8) For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: (Acts 2:25)
Thou shalt not muzzle the ox when he treadeth out the corn. (Deu. 25:4) For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen? (I Cor. 9:9. Also see I Tim. 5:18)
And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live. (Deu. 8:3) But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. (Mat. 4:4)
I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. (Psa. 82:6) Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? (John 10:34)
Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste. (Isa. 28:16) Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. (I Pet. 2:6)
Did you notice that the New Testament writers QUOTE the words in italics? This means they WERE actually in the originals! When Jesus said, "It is written..." (Mat. 4:4), he was saying that the word "word" was also written--even if the King James translators didnt have it in the Hebrew Old Testament! Like it or not, the Holy Spirit led them to use the word anyhow! If He didnt, then why did Jesus quote it?
Also, we have the case of WHO killed Goliath? II Samuel 21:19 in the KJV says: "And there was again a battle in Gob with the Philistines, where Elhanan the son of Jaareoregim, a Bethlehemite, slew the brother of Goliath the Gittite, the staff of whose spear was like a weavers beam." The words "the brother of" are in italics. If these words were omitted, then the Bible would say that Elhanan slew Goliath, instead of his brother, which would contradict the fact that David killed Goliath. (In fact, this is exactly how the New World Translation reads!) If youll check I Chronicles 20:5, youll see that the italics of II Samuel 21:19 are well justified. Moral: The English sheds light on the English--WITHOUT "the Greek."
Jonathan - 1/11/10 @ 10:26 PM
Antioch vs. Alexandria
We hear much talk these days about "older" and "more authoritative" manuscripts, but we arent hearing much about the origin of these manuscripts. It is a well established fact that there are only two lines of Bibles: one coming from Antioch, Syria (known as the Syrian or Byzantine type text), and one coming from Alexandria, Egypt (known as the Egyptian or Hesycnian type text). The Syrian text from Antioch is the Majority text from which our King James 1611 comes, and the Egyptian text is the minority text from which the new perversions come. (Never mind Rome and her Western text, for she got her manuscripts from Alexandria.)
The manuscripts from Antioch were mostly copied by Bible-believing Christians for the purpose of winning souls and spreading the word of God. The manuscripts from Alexandria were produced by infidels such as Origen Adamantius and Clement of Alexandria. These manuscripts are corrupted with Greek philosophy (Col. 2:8), and allegorical foolishness (not believing Gods word literally). The strange thing is that most Christians arent paying any attention to what Gods word says about these two places! Notice how the Holy Spirit casts Egypt and Alexandria in a NEGATIVE light, while His comments on Antioch tend to be very positive:
Egypt and Alexandria
1. Egypt is first mentioned in connection with Abraham not trusting Egyptians around his wife (Gen. 12:10-13).
2. One of the greatest types of Christ in the Bible was sold into Egypt as a slave (Gen. 37:36).>
3. Joseph did not want his bones left in Egypt (Gen. 50:25).
4. God killed all the firstborn of Egypt (Exo. 12:12).
5. God calls Egypt "the house of bondage" (Exo. 20:4).
6. God calls Egypt an "iron furnace" (Deu. 4:20).
7. The Kings of Israel were even forbidden to get horses from Egypt (Deu. 17:16), so why should we look there for a Bible?
8. The Jews were forbidden to go to Egypt for help (Jer. 42:13-19).
9. God plans to punish Egypt (Jer. 46:25).
10. God calls His Son out of Egypt (Hos. 11:1; Mat. 2:15).
11. Egypt is placed in the same category as Sodom (Rev. 11:8).
12. The first time Alexandria is mentioned in the Bible, it is associated with unbelievers, persecution, and the eventual death of Stephen (Acts 6:9; 7:54-60).
13. The next mention of Alexandria involves a lost preacher who has to be set straight on his doctrine (Acts 18:24-26).
14. The last two times we read about Alexandria is in Acts 27:6 and Acts 28:11. Here we learn that Paul was carried to his eventual death in Rome by two ships from Alexandria .
Alexandria was the second largest city of the Roman Empire, with Rome being the first. It was founded in 332 B.C. by Alexander the Great (a type of the Antichrist in Daniel 8). Located at the Nile Delta, Alexandria was the home of the Pharos Lighthouse, one of the Seven Wonders of the Ancient world. Also, during the second and third centuries B.C., it was the home of a massive library containing between 500,000 and 700,000 volumes. It was also the home of a catechetical school once headmastered by the great apostate Adamantius Origen (185-254 A.D.).
QUESTION: In light of what Gods word says about higher knowledge and philosophy (I Cor. 1:22; Rom. 1:22; Gen. 3:5; Col. 2:8; I Cor. 8:1), why would any serious Christian expect to find the true word of God in Alexandrian manuscripts?
Antioch
1. Upon its first mention, we find that Antioch is the home of a Spirit-filled deacon (Acts 6:3-5). Do you suppose it is a mere accident that the Holy Spirit first mentions Antioch in the same chapter where He first mentions Alexandria?
2. In Acts 11:19, Antioch is a shelter for persecuted saints.
3. The first major movement of the Holy Ghost among the Gentiles occurs in Antioch (Acts 11:20-21).
4. Paul and Barnabas taught the Bible in Antioch for a whole year (Acts 11:26).
5. The disciples were first called "Christians" at Antioch (Acts 11:26).
6. The church at Antioch sends relief to the poor saints at Jerusalem (Acts 11:27-30).
7. The first missionary journey is sent out from Antioch (Acts 13:1-3).
8. Antioch remains the home base or headquarters of the early church (Acts 14:19-26; 15:35).
9. The final decision of the Jerusalem council was first sent to Antioch (Acts 15:19-23, 30), because Antioch was the home base.
10. Antioch was the location of Paul setting Peter straight on his doctrine (Gal. 2:11).
Founded in 300 B.C. by Seleucus Nicator, Antioch was the third largest city of the Roman Empire. Located in Syria, about twenty miles inland from the Mediterranean on the Orontes River, Antioch had its on sea port and more than its share of travelers and tradesmen. In His infinite wisdom, God picked the ideal location for a "home base". Antioch was far enough away from the culture and traditions of the Jews (Jerusalem and Judaea) and the Gentiles (Rome, Greece, Alexandria, etc) that new Christians could grow in the Lord. Meanwhile, its geographical location was ideal for taking Gods word into all the world.
So, friend, you have a choice. You can get your Bible from Alexandria, or you can get it from Antioch. If you have a KJV, then your Bible is based on manuscripts from Antioch. If you have a new version, then you are one of many unfortunate victims of Satans salesmen from Alexandria, Egypt.
Sinaiticus and Vaticanus
When someone "corrects" the King James Bible with "more authoritative manuscripts" or "older manuscripts," or "the best authorities," theyre usually making some reference to Sinaiticus or Vaticanus. These are two very corrupt fourth century uncials that are practically worshipped by modern scholars. These are the primary manuscripts that Westcott and Hort relied so heavily on when constructing their Greek text (1851-1871) on which the new versions are based.
Vaticanus (B) is the most worshipped. This manuscript was officially catalogued in the Vatican library in 1475, and is still property of the Vatican today. Siniaticus (Aleph) was discovered in a trash can at St. Catherines Monastery on Mt. Sinai by Count Tischendorf, a German scholar, in the year 1844. Both B and Aleph are Roman Catholic manuscripts. Remember that! You might also familiarize yourself with the following facts:
1. Both manuscripts contain the Apocrypha as part of the Old Testament.
2. Tischendorf, who had seen both manuscripts, believed they were written by the same man, possibly Eusebius of Caesarea (260-340 A.D.).
3. Vaticanus was available to the King James translators, but God gave them sense enough to ignore it.
4. Vaticanus omits Geneses 1:1-46:28, Psalm 106-138, Matthew 16:2-3, Rom. 16:24, I Timothy through Titus, the entire book of Revelation, and it conveniently ends the book of Hebrews at Hebrews 9:14. If youre familiar with Hebrews 10, you know why.
5. While adding The Epistle of Barnabas and The Shepherd of Hermas to the New Testament, Siniaticus omits John 5:4, 8:1-11, Matthew 16:2-3, Romans 16:24, Mark 16:9-20, Acts 8:37, and I John 5:7 (just to name a few).
6. It is believed that Siniaticus has been altered by as many as ten different men. Consequently, it is a very sloppy piece of work (which is probably the reason for it being in a trash can). Many transcript errors, such as missing words and repeated sentences are found throughout it.
7. The Dutch scholar, Erasmus (1469-1536), who produced the worlds first printed Greek New Testament, rejected the readings of Vaticanus and Siniaticus.
8. Vaticanus and Siniaticus not only disagree with the Majority Text from which the KJV came, they also differ from each other. In the four Gospels alone, they differ over 3,000 times!
9. When someone says that B and Aleph are the oldest available manuscripts, they are lying. There are many Syriac and Latin translations from as far back as the SECOND CENTURY that agree with the King James readings. For instance, the Pashitta (145 A.D.), and the Old Syriac (400 A.D.) both contain strong support for the King James readings. There are about fifty extant copies of the Old Latin from about 157 A.D., which is over two hundred years before Jerome was conveniently chosen by Rome to "revise" it. Then Ulfilas produced a Gothic version for Europe in A.D. 330. The Armenian Bible, which agrees with the King James, has over 1,200 extant copies and was translated by Mesrob around the year 400. Sinaiticus and Vaticanus are clearly NOT the oldest and best manuscripts.
Jonathan - 1/11/10 @ 10:26 PM
Facts about Westcott and Hort
Brooke Foss Westcott (1825-1901) and Fenton John Anthony Hort (1828-1892) were the two English "scholars" who produced the corrupt Greek text of the modern versions. Their dominating influence on the revision committee of 1871-1881 accounts for most of the corruption that we have today in modern translations. The Bible believer should keep several points in mind when discussing these two men. The following information is well documented in Final Authority, by William Grady, and in Riplingers New Age Bible Versions:
1. Together, the Life and Letters of Brooke Foss Westcott and the Life and Letters of Fenton John Anthony Hort run over 1,800 pages. A personal salvation testimony is not given once for either man, and the name "Jesus" is found only nine times!
2. Westcott was a firm believer in Mary worship, and Hort claimed that Mary worship had a lot in common with Jesus worship.
3. Hort believed in keeping Roman Catholic sacraments.
4. Hort believed in baptismal regeneration as taught in the Catholic church.
5. Hort rejected the infallibility of Scripture.
6. Hort took great interest in the works of Charles Darwin, while both he and Westcott rejected the literal account of Creation.
7. Westcott did not believe in the Second Coming of Christ, the Millennium, or a literal Heaven.
8. Both men rejected the doctrine of a literal Hell, and they supported prayers for the dead in purgatory.
9. Hort refused to believe in the Trinity.
10. Hort refused to believe in angels.
11. Westcott confessed that he was a communist by nature.
12. Hort confessed that he hated democracy in all its forms.
13. Westcott also did his share of beer drinking. In fact, only twelve years after the Revised Version was published, Westcott was a spokesman for a brewery.
14. While working on their Greek text (1851-1871), and while working on the Revision Committee for the Revised Version (1871-1881), Westcott and Hort were also keeping company with "seducing spirits and doctrines of devils" (I Tim. 4:1). Both men took great interest in occult practices and clubs. They started the Hermes Club in 1845, the Ghostly Guild in 1851, and Hort joined a secret club called The Apostles in the same year. They also started the Eranus Club in 1872. These were spiritualists groups which believed in such unscriptural practices as communicating with the dead (necromancy).
15. The Westcott and Hort Greek text was SECRETLY given to the Revision Committee.
16. The members of the Revision Committee of 1881 were sworn to a pledge of secrecy in regard to the new Greek text being used, and they met in silence for ten years.
17. The corrupt Greek text of Westcott and Hort was not released to the public until just five days before the debut of the Revised Version. This prevented Bible-believing scholars like Dean Burgon from reviewing it and exposing it for the piece of trash that it was.
QUESTION: Does this sound like an HONEST work of God or a DISHONEST work of the Devil?
Jonathan - 1/11/10 @ 10:27 PM
Translating the King James Bible
Unlike Westcott, Hort, and the R.V. Committee, King James went through great efforts to guard the 1611 translation from errors. Please note the following:
1. In 1604, King James announced that fifty-four Hebrew and Greek scholars had been appointed to translate a new Bible for English speaking people. The number was reduced to forty-seven by the time the work formally began in 1607.
2. Rather than working together all at one location, these men were divided into six separate groups, which worked at three separate locations. There were two at Westminster, two at Oxford, and two at Cambridge.
3. Each group was given a selected portion of Scripture to translate.
4. Each scholar made his own translation of a book, and then passed it on to be reviewed by each member of his group.
5. The whole group then went over the book together.
6. Once a group had completed a book of the Bible, they sent it to be reviewed by the other five groups.
7. All objectionable and questionable translating was marked and noted, and then it was returned to the original group for consideration.
8. A special committee was formed by selecting one leader from each group. This committee worked out all of the remaining differences and presented a finished copy for the printers in 1611.
9. This means that the King James Bible had to pass at least FOURTEEN examinations before going to press.
10. Throughout this entire process, any learned individuals of the land could be called upon for their judgment, and the churches were kept informed of the progress.
QUESTION: Does THIS sound like an HONEST work of God or a DISHONEST work of the Devil?
Jonathan - 1/11/10 @ 10:28 PM
Lets Compare Bibles
In this section, we have reprinted our Lets Compare Bibles tract. Here you will see several good examples of how modern Bible versions are attacking Gods word. We have selected eight modern translations for evaluation. The translations evaluated are as follows:
NIV....... New International Version
NASB... New American Standard Bible
NRSV... New Revised Standard Version
REB...... Revised English Bible
LB......... Living Bible
NWT..... New World Translation
NAB ..... New American Bible
NKJV.... New King James Version
Although we have limited this study to eight new translations, you will find many of these attacks manifested in ANY new translation. You will find that some of the most important doctrines of the Bible are being attacked in the new versions. Whether you have a Living Bible, a New Century Version, a Revised Standard Version, or any of the other perversions of Scripture, you are going to see the Devil hard at work on the revision committees of the new translations. The King James reading will appear first, followed by a brief comment, and then the perverted readings of the modern perversions.
Psalm 12:6-7
The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.
The above promise from the King James Bible tells us that God intends to preserve His WORDS forever. Notice how the new versions destroy this promise by making you think the context is Gods PEOPLE rather than His WORDS:
NIV....... you will keep us safe
NASB... Thou wilt preserve him
NRSV... You, O Lord, will protect us
REB...... you are our protector
LB......... you will forever preserve your own
NAB...... You, O Lord, will keep us
Isaiah 7:14
Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
Notice how some new versions attack the Virgin Birth of Christ by robbing Mary of her virginity. As anyone well knows, a young woman or a maiden is NOT necessarily a virgin:
NRSV... young woman
REB...... young woman
NWT..... maiden
Luke 2:33
And Joseph and his mother marvelled at those things which were spoken of him.
Here the new versions attack the Virgin Birth by telling us that Joseph was Christs father:
NIV....... The childs father
NASB... His father
NRSV... the childs father
REB...... The childs father
NWT..... its father
NAB...... the childs father
I Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Notice how the King James is very clear in telling us WHO was manifest in the flesh: GOD was manifest in the flesh. Now watch the new perversions throw God clear out of the verse:
NIV....... He appeared in a body
NASB... He who was revealed in the flesh
NRSV... He was revealed in flesh
REB...... He was manifested in the flesh
LB......... who came to earth as a man
NWT..... He was made manifest in the flesh
NAB...... He was manifested in the flesh
Micah 5:2
But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.
This is a prophecy of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the verse tells us that He had no beginning. As the Second Member of the Trinity, He is ETERNAL, or from everlasting, but not in most modern translations:
NIV....... from ancient times
NRSV... from ancient days
REB..... in ancient times
NWT.... from the days of time indefinite
NAB..... from ancient times (vs. 1)
Isaiah 14:12
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
Revelation 22:16 tells us that Jesus Christ is the "Morning Star". The King James Bible never gives this title to anyone else. However, in some new versions, Jesus Christ and Satan are the same, because some versions have taken the liberty to call Satan the "morning star" in Isaiah 14:12. Although some versions do not go so far as to call Satan the "morning star," they still throw out the name "Lucifer".
NIV....... morning star
NASB... star of the morning
NRSV... Day Star
REB...... Bright morning star
NWT..... you shining one
NAB...... morning star
Daniel 3:25
He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.
This is an excellent Old Testament verse which shows that Jesus Christ existed long before He was born in Bethlehem. Naturally, the new versions will pervert it with pagan foolishness:
NIV....... a son of the gods
NASB... a son of the gods
NRSV... a god
REB..... a god
LB........ a god
NWT.... a son of the gods
NAB..... a son of God (vs. 92)
Colossians 1:14
In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
Satan hates the Atoning Blood of the Lord Jesus Christ, so we shouldnt be surprised to find the blood missing in modern translations:
NIV....... redemption, the forgiveness of sins
NASB... redemption, the forgiveness of sins
NRSV... redemption, the forgiveness of sins
REB..... our release is secured and our sins are forgiven
NWT.... we have our release by ransom, the forgiveness of sins
NAB...... redemption, the forgiveness of our sins
Romans 14:10-12
But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
If youll read the above verses carefully, you will notice how it magnifies Jesus Christ. According to verse 10, we will stand before the Judgment Seat of CHRIST, and verse 12 says that when we do we will give account to GOD. When we stand before Jesus Christ we will be standing before God--an excellent text on the Deity of Christ. Now watch as the new versions throw Jesus Christ clear out of the passage by replacing the word "Christ" in verse 10 with "God:"
NIV....... Gods judgment seat
NASB... Judgment seat of God
NRSV... judgment seat of God
REB...... Gods tribunal
LB......... Judgment Seat of God
NWT..... judgment seat of God
NAB...... judgment seat of God
Acts 8:37
And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
This verse is very important because it places a definite condition upon water baptism: one must first BELIEVE ON CHRIST. Many modern versions throw the entire verse out of the Bible:
NIV....... entire verse missing
NRSV... entire verse missing
REB...... entire verse missing
NWT..... entire verse missing
NAB...... omits entire verse, but re-numbers the verses so you wont miss it
II Corinthians 2:17
For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.
You can imagine how this verse must be a thorn in the flesh to the modern translators who are busy CORRUPTING the word of God day and night. So, do they repent of their sins and get right with God? Of course not:
NIV....... peddle
NASB... peddling
NRSV... peddlers
REB...... adulterating the word of God for profit
LB......... hucksters
NWT..... peddlers
NAB...... trade on the word of God
NKJV.... peddling
II Timothy 2:15
Studyto shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
This is the one command in the New Testament to "study" and "rightly divide" Gods word, and the Devil does NOT appreciate it:
NIV....... Do your best...correctly handles
NASB... Be diligent...handling accurately
NRSV... Do your best...rightly explaining
REB...... Try hard...keep strictly to the true gospel
LB......... Work hard...Know what his word says and means
NWT..... Do your utmost...handling the word of truth aright
NAB...... Try hard...following a straight course inpreaching the truth
NKJV.... Be diligent...rightly dividing
I Timothy 6:20
O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:
Many lies are being propagated today in the name of "science" (evolution for example), but I Timothy 6:20 has been warning us about it all along - except in the new perversions:
NIV....... knowledge
NASB... knowledge
NRSV... knowledge
REB...... knowledge
LB......... knowledge
NWT..... knowledge
NAB...... knowledge
NKJV.... knowledge