Should the church allow women to teach? Not to be a pastor but to teach. Like sunday school classes and stuff.
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55 replies on this topic
daniel@seekGodnow.org - 7/16/11 @ 6:36 PM
do you mean teaching children?
because some teenagers go to sunday classes
Nicole - 7/16/11 @ 9:05 PM
Yes. I'm majoring in ministry, minoring in counseling. Basically the requisites for a youth pastor. I'm also following the degree plan for this job.
Zombie Pickles - 7/16/11 @ 9:13 PM
I mean anything.
Ericka - 7/16/11 @ 9:38 PM
I think it is alright for the woman to help out. There were female prophets...I just can't remember the scripture on where it says that. I think the men do lead though.
I think the Lord would want us to reach out to those who are in need in anyway we could as long as we didn't do wrong things to do it..? Am I making sense?
Thirst - 7/16/11 @ 11:04 PM
It depends on how you view the scripture.
A lot of believers take the Old Testament commands (not the Commandments, they're different) very literally, and are not very different from the Mormons and the Almish in appearance (though the Almish are more extreme).
To those believers, you might run into some issues with women teaching.
The vast majority of believers aren't like that, however, and are perfectly fine with women teaching. If that's what God has equipped them to do, then have them do it, just like you would for any male.
daniel@seekGodnow.org - 7/16/11 @ 11:25 PM
what old testament commands are you talking about, thirst? as far as I know, only the new testament directly forbids women from being teachers/exercising authority over men
Zombie Pickles - 7/17/11 @ 8:55 AM
I'm just wondering what you guys think because my church thinks that women sohould be allowed to teach ever. Because the women was decieved first. I think that is in 1 Peter or TImothey. But we allow them to teaach children which doens't make sense.
Joyful Noise - 7/17/11 @ 11:47 PM
I believe the answer might be in the verse zombie mentioned above. Is it because Eve was the one who was deceived not Adam?
1 Timothy 2:12-15
12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15 But women will be saved through childbearing--if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.
Is verse 12 saying a woman should not teach over a man and have no authority over a man? Is verse 15 saying women should raise(teach) children to have faith? Or that is how I understand it.
joseBloodBought - 7/19/11 @ 11:47 PM
I hear more opinion than solid exegesis of scripture. It is scripture that admonishes us that woman is not to usurp authority over a man. men and women have tried to insert there own reasoning into the scriptures to try to make it a cultural command but I challenge you to take the text in its context for exactly what it says without any presuppositions then interpret what it says. bingo. It means what it says. I have heard the Deborah defense and mind you that in the book of Isaiah one of the signs that a nation was under God's judgement was that their was a woman leader. In Judges 4 Israel was presently under judgement. We try to subjectively interpret the bible and that is a big mistake. To objectively read a passage even one that goes against what we think of as moral or socially correct is often unheard of. We must understand that god knows some things we don't. His ways are much higher than our ways. If the word of God says a woman is not to usurp authority over a man then it is foolish to take the text into your reasoning and do with it whatever you choose to. We must humbly accept that which the Lord has set forth and established even if it is uncomfortable. There should be no Joyce Meyer, no Paula White, no Juanita Bynum but those with itching ears will heap up on themselves teachers to scratch them. How can you be a faithful teacher of the word and you blatantly ignore a statue established by God? Your ministry cannot be of the Lord if it directly contradicts the order God has set. Women do have a role in corporate ministry. the elder women are to instruct the younger and women are to rear up their children. There is no maxim saying that a woman cannot evangelize and be missional but in respect to her God given role. In this feminist america women deem those prescribed roles as chauvinistic or misogynistic rather than admirable and honorable. So sad,
Jordan Dean - 7/19/11 @ 11:58 PM
@jose - I agree with you entirely. God would not include that verse in His word if it didn't matter. Women can have many roles in churches but as for anything the Bible specifically denies, it is against God. Saying a woman can be a pastor is like saying murder is okay because the Ten Commandments don't apply to us.
emilie - 8/3/11 @ 9:27 AM
@daniel's first post: hihiii i agree =p
... i agree tha that women can preach the gosplel as well as man.. i personaly know a pastor(a woman) who is a Godly woman and anointed by God. if God calls you to preach (in sunday school or the church) do it! man or woman!
andrea statler - 8/9/11 @ 4:26 PM
My problem is the judgment that is involved with women teaching because between denominations people have different outlooks on women pastors, teachers etc., and especially if you ask a man who believes a woman should teach only children to sit in on message given by a woman pastor, I can almost GUARENTEE you he will be so wrapped up in the fact that a woman is doing a 'man only' job and will be so busy judging her that there is no room to actually learn or listen from what she has to say about growing in faith.
And as far as the "eve ate the apple first so she should be forever condemned from ever being able to lead a group of people ever again" however, adam sinned too, by eating the fruit, that could've been Adam's time to shine and say over Eve, "No, that is the Forbidden fruit, neither of us should eat it, because God commanded us not to." then I could understand that he has leadership over a woman, but he didn't. He sinned too.. So all in all none of us should be teaching the Word of God or being the Leaders of the church if we seriously want to be THAT judgmental.
Reagan - 8/9/11 @ 6:06 PM
I believe that women should not lead the church. But, it's ok for them to do SS and other things like that. But, no leading the church in a pastor position
Jordan Dean - 8/9/11 @ 7:42 PM
What the Bible say goes. If you do not follow it by the letter, you are disobeying God. Regardless of what your stance, opinion or problem is with women teaching/preaching/leading, the Bible states what is right and what is wrong. If the Bible says a woman cannot lead over a man in a church, that is what is true regardless of how this causes judgmental personalities or if you see it as wrong.
Rachel Spoon - 8/9/11 @ 10:36 PM
Well... In 1 Timothy, it says that the women of the church should be silent... but there have been many women mentioned throughout Paul's letters where he is speaking highly of their preaching. Personally, I feel like God is calling me to be a youth pastor one day. I don't see anything wrong with it...
Jordan Dean - 8/9/11 @ 10:53 PM
Please provide scripture of these women that Paul speaks highly of their preaching.
joseBloodBought - 8/10/11 @ 9:28 AM
@andrea Your hermeneutic is absolutely horrible. If God ordains the context of how we are supposed to corporatley fellowship then we must exercise this role such as God ordained. I keep reading opinions and not facts or contortions of the scripture to force it into our modern cultural context rather than a solid exegesis of the text itself. Any post starting with the following words is of no particular authority "I feel" "I believe" "I think" "My perspective" "My position" "In my opinion" "My problem" "personally" "i don't think" "the way I see it". We start with asking what does the scripture say and that is our guide.
joseBloodBought - 8/10/11 @ 9:29 AM
We don't believe there's a place for women elders in the church. When the apostle Paul said that a woman should not "teach or exercise authority over a man" (1 Timothy 2:12), he did not follow that statement with a cultural argument. Rather he went all the way back to creation to show that women weren't intended to dominate men (vv. 13-14). The reasons he gave are that the woman was created after the man, and that she was deceived when acting independently of his leadership.
Paul goes on to say in 1 Timothy 2:15 that "women shall be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint." That verse is not talking about women's eternal destiny, but means that they are saved from being second-class citizens through the privilege of rearing children. God designed a woman to fulfill a role in the home that no man ever can (Proverbs 31:10-31; Titus 2:4-5).
Our society's current thinking on the woman's role is contrary to the priorities revealed in the Bible. Genesis 3 explains why that conflict exists. After the Fall, God told the woman, "Your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you" (Genesis 3:16). Genesis 4:7 helps us to understand what that verse means. There God told Cain, "Sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it." Exactly the same phrase is used in both passages.
So in the same way sin tries to dominate us all, fallen women desire to overpower their husbands, and fallen men tend to oppress them in the same way sin oppresses the sinner. The intended balance, of course, is achieved when men and women lead and submit in a godly manner (Ephesians 5:22-33).- John Macarthur, Grace To you
joseBloodBought - 8/10/11 @ 9:29 AM
Let the women keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak. Paul was emphasizing the fact that the principle of women’s not speaking in church services was not local, geographical, or cultural, but universal, in all the churches of the saints. Though it embraces tongues, the context here refers to prophecy. Women are not to exercise any such ministries.
The women who joined in the chaotic self–expression which Paul has been condemning not only added to the confusion but should not have been speaking in the first place. In God’s order for the church, women should subject themselves, just as the Law also says. The principle was first taught in the Old Testament and is reaffirmed in the New In reflection of that principle, no women were permitted to speak at the Jewish synagogues.
One of the designs of creation, as well as one of the primary consequences of the Fall, was the submission of women (Gen. 3:16). Paul reflected that principle explicitly when he said, “Let a woman quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet” (1 Tim. 2:11–12). Paul’s argument was not based on cultural standards but on two historic and foundational facts: (1) “Adam … was first created, and then Eve” and (2) “it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman” (vv. 13–14). Men are to lead in love; women are to submit in love. That is God’s design.
It is not coincidental that, like Corinth, many of the churches today that practice speaking in tongues and claim gifts of healing also permit women to engage in speaking ministry. Many charismatic groups, in fact, were begun by women, just as many of the cults that have sprung from Christianity were founded by women. When women usurp man’s God–ordained role, they inevitably fall into other unbiblical practices and delusions.
Women may be highly gifted teachers and leaders, but those gifts are not to be exercised over men in the services of the church. God has ordained order in His creation, an order that reflects His own nature and that therefore should be reflected in His church. When any part of His order is ignored or rejected, His church is weakened and He is dishonored. Just as God’s Spirit cannot be in control where there is confusion and chaos in the church, He cannot be in control where women take upon themselves roles that He has restricted to men. It is improper [aischros, “shameful, disgraceful”] for a woman to speak in church. That statement leaves no question as to its meaning.
If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home. The implication is present in this statement that certain women were out of order in asking questions in the church service. If they desired to learn, the church was no place for them to express their questions in a disruptive way. Paul also implies, of course, that Christian husbands should be well taught in the Word. Many women are tempted to go beyond their biblical roles because of frustration with Christian men, often including their own husbands, who do not responsibly fulfill the leadership assignments God has given them. But God has established the proper order and relationship of male–female roles in the church, and they are not to be transgressed for any reason. For a woman to take on a man’s role because he has neglected it merely compounds the problem. It is not possible for a woman to substitute for a man in such things. God often has led women to do work that men have refused to do, but He does not lead them to accomplish that work through roles He has restricted to men.
There are times in informal meetings and Bible studies where it is entirely proper for men and women to share equally in exchanging questions and insights. But when the church comes together as a body to worship God, His standards are clear: the role of leadership is reserved for men.
joseBloodBought - 8/10/11 @ 9:33 AM
This is a letter from Christian Apologetics Research Minmistry Regarding this topic:
it is not possible for a woman to possess every spiritual gift that a man possesses. A woman cannot be a father. Furthermore, the spiritual gift of being an elder/pastor is something only the male is called to per divine revelation. The Bible says that the bishop/overseer is to be the husband of one wife (1 Tim. 3:2). Again, in Titus 1:5-7, Paul says, "For this reason I left you in Crete, that you might set in order what remains, and appoint elders in every city as I directed you, namely, if any man be above reproach, the husband of one wife, having children who believe, not accused of dissipation or rebellion. For the overseer must be above reproach as God's steward..." Notice that Paul interchanges the word 'elder' and 'overseer'. It is God who gives gifts to the Church and one of the gifts is the pastor/elder. By definition, a pastor is an elder.
Second, let's take a look at God's word concerning eldership. We must know what God's word says specifically about pastoring/eldership before we draw our conclusions. (We have provided an outline of information on eldership at the end of this paper from which the following is extracted.)
The Term "Elder" The Greek term is presbuteros and depending on context means elder, an old man, a leader in the church. The term is used. It is used of the elder of two persons (Luke 15:25, or more, John 8:9); of a person advanced in age (Acts 2:17; in Heb. 11:2); of the forefathers in Israel (Matt. 15:2; Mark 7:3,5); of members of the Sanhedrin (Matt. 16:21; 26:47); of those who managed public affairs in the various cities (Luke 7:3); of those who were the heads or leaders of the tribes and families, as of the seventy who helped Moses (Num. 11:16; Deut. 27:1). This included:
Regarding the Office:
The pastor is an elder who preaches and/or teaches (1 Tim. 5:17).
The pastor (elder) is to equip the body of Christ (Eph. 4:11-13).
Must be a man (1 Tim. 2:9-13).
All uses of "elder" are in the masculine except for 1 Tim. 5:2 where it means older women.
The Responsibilities of Elders in the NT Church:
Must shepherd the flock (1 Peter 5:2).
They have the tasks of teaching (1 Tim. 5:17; Titus 1:5,9).
They have the tasks of acting as judges (Acts 15:2,6,22-29; 16:4).
Qualifications for an elder
Must be above reproach (Titus 1:6; 1 Tim. 3:2)
Husband of one wife (Titus 1:6; 1 Tim. 3:2).
Household must be in order with children who believe (Titus 1:6 ;1 Tim. 3:4).
Not a new convert (1 Tim. 3:6).
Self controlled and temperate (Titus 1:7; 1 Tim. 3:2).
Honorable, hospitable, seeking good (Titus 1:7).
Have a good reputation (1 Tim. 3:7).
Able to exhort (teach) sound doctrine (Titus 1:9; 1 Tim. 3:2).
Able to refute false teaching (Titus 1:9).
Important: Please take special note of section two outlined above where the declaration from God's Word is that the pastor/elder is to be male and that the elder is one who teaches. A pastor of a church stands in the pulpit, the place of authority and teaches from God's word. By nature, the teaching of God's word, in the pulpit, is an authoritative act. This is why it is to be done by an elder who is appointed in the church. Let's look further into God's word.
1 Peter 5:1-3, "Therefore, I exhort the elders among you, as your fellow elder and witness of the sufferings of Christ, and a partaker also of the glory that is to be revealed, 2 shepherd the flock of God among you, exercising oversight not under compulsion, but voluntarily, according to the will of God; and not for sordid gain, but with eagerness; 3 nor yet as lording it over those allotted to your charge, but proving to be examples to the flock.
In 1 Peter 5:1-3, every occurrence of the word "elder(s) is in the masculine form in the Greek.
The elder is to shepherd the flock. A pastor is a shepherd.
The elder/pastor oversees the flock.
Therefore, the pastor is an elder of the church.
Since God has declared the elder is to be the husband of one wife (at the very least a male), it is not possible for a woman to hold this position. Therefore, this Pastor's premise that "a woman may possess every spiritual gift that a man possesses" is shown to be incorrect. Furthermore, the word of God declares the pastor/elder is to be male.